“Stimulus” Is Really A Depressant

Peter Schiff Was Right THEN (2006 – 2007)

Peter Schiff Is Right NOW: “Stimulus” Bill is a “Depressant” and will lead to “Unmitigated Disaster”

So, why is Obama pushing something that will harm, not help, our country?

I’ve got a core set of values that, uh, I think have to be advanced. Um, and, and, that I, my individual salvation depends on, uh, our collective salvation…

Barack Hussein Obama 11/23/04

Which Collectivist Said It…

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75 Responses to “Stimulus” Is Really A Depressant

  1. Jonah says:

    I was going to reply to your post in The Audacity of Deceipt, but I figure I’d just put it here, since we’re talking about the same thing.
    …………..
    I wasn’t referring only to economic policy when I said his positions mirrored mine. If all I needed to hear from a politician was “no more earmarks”, I would own several bridges right now. I was talking about a whole host of issues, many of which I’m sure you disagree with (abortion rights, torture policy, Iraq, immigration, education, health care, etc.). I’d be happy to talk to you about any of those (yes, even the first one, which has yet to see civil debate on the internet) when you’re interested.

    But, sure, we can talk about the economy right now. I’ll admit something: it’s complicated! Economists don’t all agree on anything. Yes, Peter Schiff has been warning about an economic collapse since ’06, and he says a stimulus bill is bad. Fine. But Paul Krugman has also been warning about the same thing since 2005, and he says the stimulus bill is needed! (Though he thinks the bipartisan changes are watering it down too much to be effective.)

    Who’s right? I don’t know. Humanity doesn’t know. I’ve read both arguments a good deal, and I tend to find the left’s side more convincing. But what I do know is anyone who pretends to be confident about this issue is lying. Your question “Why is Obama pushing something that will harm, not hurt, our country?” is facetious. (And bizarre. What’s the difference between harming and hurting? I’ll assume you mean “help” for the latter.) As you said earlier, both sides here want the same thing, but we disagree on how to attain it. Do you really need to accuse the president of treason because his plan is different from yours?

  2. Your question “Why is Obama pushing something that will harm, not hurt, our country?” is facetious. (And bizarre. What’s the difference between harming and hurting? I’ll assume you mean “help” for the latter.)

    You are correct, that was a goof on my part, and I’ve updated it in the post above.

  3. I’d be happy to talk to you about any of those (yes, even the first one [abortion], which has yet to see civil debate on the internet) when you’re interested.

    OK.

    DNA evidence is often used in court cases as a means of determining unique identity. If the defendant’s DNA is found at a crime scene, the defendant is usually found guilty (unless they are O. J. Simpson, but that’s another topic).

    Question: When was your unique DNA established?

  4. Jonah says:

    Ooh, I know this one! Approximately when I was conceived.

    Since we’re playing Socratic 20 Questions, now I get to ask you one. Sorry, it’s a little harder:

    Question: Are humans fundamentally moral creatures? That is to say, even without religion to guide us, are we inherently capable of making difficult moral decisions, even ones in which no solution is without flaws?

  5. Jonah,

    My point is that from a purely biological standpoint, your unique identity was established at conception. Your life began when your mother’s pregnancy began… at conception.

    Pregnancy is one continuous process from conception to birth. Life begins at conception. There is no other point in the pregancy where one can definitively say “life begins here…before this point there was no life, and after this point there is life”.

    That is why people who do not accept that life begins at conception can’t answer when life begins…that question is “above their pay grade“. But some go even farther and don’t accept that even a born alive infant is alive. Obama supported the practice of letting born alive infants be abandoned until they died. It’s called infanticide, and you not only supported this candidate but also campaigned for him. So, for you to even discuss morality is highly questionable.

    Humans are the only creatures in God’s creation that even think about morality. So, in a sense, you could say that makes us “fundamentally moral creatures”. You want to remove religion from the question, but it is central to the question. God created us with a sense of right vs. wrong, and a need to seek Him.

    … because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse…

    Romans 1:19-20

  6. Jonah says:

    Hey, there wasn’t a question in there! No fair.

    As a mathematician, I’m wary of your assumption that there even exists a point at which life begins. (I’m also a little confused by your suggestion that one’s identity is determined solely by genetics. Are you now willing to concede that homosexuality is innate?) As a scientist in general, I’m curious what you even mean by “life.” (For what it’s worth, I think this is exactly the concept Obama was trying to convey with his “above my pay grade” comment. But this is about an issue, not a candidate.)

    But nevertheless, I’m willing to concede the point that life begins at conception. Whether or not a fetus is a living thing is not central to my argument, because I do not claim that abortion is anything but a bad thing. Where I do disagree with you is whether the law is really the appropriate way to minimize abortions.

    Before we move on to the next question, I want to clarify your answer to the first. You say that religion is central to the question, because God made us moral. Eventually, I’d like to have an argument with you without your reliance on axioms (the existence of God, for instance) with which we don’t agree, but I’ll accept this for now. But that’s not really what I meant by “without religion”. I mean this: if God bestowed us with a sense of right and wrong, are we inherently, even the atheists among us, moral creatures? Or did God only bestow moral enlightenment on those who recognize his existence?

    Once you answer that, I’ll continue on that track. But for now, let’s talk about your side of things. You seem to believe that abortion should be outlawed. (If not, we have nothing to discuss.) How, in your mind, does this work? In particular, what about cases of rape? Should pregnant rape victims be forced to carry their attackers’ offspring to term, or can the bad thing of that experience “outweigh” the bad thing of abortion?

    Finally, though I really don’t want this discussion to be about Obama, I would like to confront your suggestion that he supports infanticide, since you used this to assault my own moral sense. I assume you’re referring to his vote in the Illinois Senate, in which he voted against a bill prohibiting exactly what you described. As usual, your assumption that the world is simple is leading you astray. Obama voted against this bill because the law in question was already in place in Illinois. One can vote against a new version of an existing law for a number of reasons; it certainly doesn’t mean that one disapproves of the current version.

  7. Jonah says:

    Oh man. That’s longer than it looked in the submission form. Am I turning into John?

  8. Frin says:

    Jonah,

    Nope – not turning into John, because your post was coherent.

  9. Math says:

    I have a question for pill. Pregnancy is a perfect example of pure socialism, or even parasitism. The fetus is 100% dependent on the mother. You keep telling us that you want to remain free, not to have anybody depending on you to make a living, etc. So what about the freedom of the mother?

  10. Jonah says:

    C’mon man. I’m trying to have a serious discussion here, and you’re referring to a fetus as a parasite.

  11. Math says:

    “Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between two different organisms where one organism, the parasite, takes from the host, sometimes for a prolonged time” Wikipedia

    Like it or not, by definition, it is. It may not be the best example, but I’m just pointing out the inconsistencies in his reasoning, not unlike what you’re trying to do. That’s usually what debate is all about.

  12. Jonah says:

    Except I’m actually trying to convince him of something, if not to agree with my argument then at least to understand it. Generally speaking, if someone believes in the sanctity of life as unequivocally as Pill, you’re not going to have a rational, cool-headed discussion that starts off with a comparison between fetuses and mosquitoes.

    You know this, but you’re trying to start shit anyway. As a mathematician and a liberal, I’m embarrassed.

  13. Math says:

    You assume it is possible to have a rational, cool-headed on this subject with them. Except their position (the right in general) is not rational, cool-headed. I am pointing it out. How can they claim to believe in sanctity of life, yet be so obsessed with guns, death penalty and war? How can they let sick people who can’t afford to get cured die just because they don’t want to pay a dime more in taxes?

    It makes no sense whatsoever to me. How can you be selectively pro-life?

  14. Jonah,

    I’m willing to concede the point that life begins at conception. Whether or not a fetus is a living thing is not central to my argument, because I do not claim that abortion is anything but a bad thing.

    I’m encouraged to hear that. We agree that life begins at conception. You call abortion a “bad thing”. I call it murder.

    if God bestowed us with a sense of right and wrong, are we inherently, even the atheists among us, moral creatures?

    Yes, we are all created equal.

    Should pregnant rape victims be forced to carry their attackers’ offspring to term, or can the bad thing of that experience “outweigh” the bad thing of abortion?

    Rape is a crime committed by the biological father. The child is completely innocent and should not receive the death penalty for the father’s crime. Yes, the mother should carry the child to term, and put it up for adoption. There are couples in this country who are so desperate to adopt a child that they literally fly halfway around the globe and pay tens of thousands of dollars to Communist governments just to adopt a baby. As you say, rape is a “bad thing” and abortion/murder is a “bad thing“. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

    Abortion is not a solution to a problem. It makes a bad situation worse. See the true testimonies.

    And in terms of Obama, learn the truth.

  15. Math,

    I am not “obsessed with guns, death penalty and war”.

    It is not possible to have a rational, cool-headed discussion with you, so this may be the only reply you receive from me, even if you post additional comments.

  16. Jonah says:

    Ooh. How do you do those quote indentations? I wanna learn.

    >>You call abortion a “bad thing”. I call it murder.

    I’ll agree that abortion is killing, but there’s a big difference between killing and murder. I’ve yet to be convinced that abortions are carried out in cold blood, for instance. But that’s still beside the point.

    >>The child is completely innocent and should not receive the death penalty for the father’s crime. Yes, the mother should carry the child to term, and put it up for adoption.

    I think you’re seriously underestimating what pregnancy entails. Though I’m sure you’ll disagree with much of it, this post on Bitch PhD paints a good picture. Just keep in mind that throughout this hypothetical pregnancy of a woman who has been raped, she’s spending her time puking in the middle of the night and remembering why she’s in this situation. Do you really believe that everyone can handle this, a nine month reminder of the worst part of any person’s life? You don’t think it could drive someone to do something drastic, like inducing a miscarriage, or seeking a backalley abortion, or, well, suicide? Think carefully about these things. Our side isn’t the only one that must remember lives are on the line.

    >>Two wrongs don’t make a right.

    Absolutely. But any moral psychologist can tell you that sometimes, wrongs are the only choices you have. Such dilemmas are where morality is forged.

    >>And in terms of Obama, learn the truth.

    Thanks for the link! Did you read it? His testimony in the Senate confirms exactly what I suspected: he was concerned about differences between this bill and legislation that was already on the books. Namely, that the bill(s) in question would remove the doctor’s ability to decide whether saving the baby was possible. Now you may agree with this (is it not the same debate as that over euthanasia?), but a large portion of Americans do believe that if death is imminent, patients (even those who cannot voice as such) should be allowed to die in peace. Yes, there is still much to debate. But again, saying the president is support of infanticide is highly disingenuous.

  17. Ryan,
    Wrap the text you want to quote with the HTML blockquote tag:
    <blockquote>quoted text</blockquote>

    Your Bitch Ph.D. link should have a Strong Profanity Warning.
    I don’t have much respect for people who use the f-word and c-word in making their point. However, I will address one thing she says:

    I realized, in a way that I do not think anyone who hasn’t been pregnant, or lived with someone who’s pregnant can, that this is a major, major thing.

    I have lived with someone who’s pregnant, have you?
    My wife and I have been through more pregnancies than you can count on one hand, and some of them have ended in miscarriage. I understand both the joys and the challenges of pregnancy.

    Abortion creates two victims:
    one dead
    one injured

    Abortion is not an answer. Many women who have abortions are mentally traumatized by it for the rest of their lives. Most women who cary their baby to term are glad that they did.

    And in terms of Obama, watch this.

    Lastly, I have some important business development work to do and may not be doing much on the blog front for a while…

  18. Jonah says:

    (My name isn’t Ryan.)

    Sorry if you found the profanity jarring, but that’s sort of the point.

    Abortion is not an answer. Many women who have abortions are mentally traumatized by it for the rest of their lives. Most women who cary their baby to term are glad that they did.

    Okay, abortion sucks. I thought we had agreed on this already. That still doesn’t address the concerns I raised above. Do you deny that for some rape victims, the nine month task of carrying their attacker’s child to term is a deeply painful experience, both emotionally and physically? Perhaps there is no “solution” to this problem, but have you nothing to say about it?

    The Obama video appears to be an audio version of the transcript you linked earlier. I’m not sure what was supposed to change my mind.

  19. Jonah says:

    Since you’ll be away for a while, and I intended for this conversation to go on longer, I’ll take this time to sum up my feelings on the matter, in particular on some areas we haven’t gotten to yet.

    I, like you, believe that humans are fundamentally moral beings. I believe we have a sense of right and wrong and, more importantly, that this sense is not binary. I believe that humans have the unique capacity to make decisions even when no option is good. Even when both options have the ability to leave them, as you put it, “traumatized … for the rest of their lives.”

    I believe, furthermore, that humans have not just a capacity for distinguishing right and wrong, but an inherent conscience pushing them towards right. I believe that no human chooses wrong on purpose.

    I believe that when faced with difficult decisions, we do not make them flippantly. I believe there exist scenarios, some which I have mentioned and others which I haven’t yet imagined, in which abortion is a justifiable choice. I do not believe that the law, the straight line between legality and illegality, can comprehend these scenarios. I believe that the human moral conscience, when given time to consider the details of its unique situation, is a better arbiter for these things than the government.

    I believe in the right to make decisions in one’s own interest. I also believe in the responsibility to keep in mind those who cannot yet make decisions. “If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And when I am for myself, what am I?” asked Hillel, and I agree with the sentiment.

    I believe in the seriousness of rape. I believe in the danger of domestic violence. I believe in the horror of child abuse. I believe in victims’ rights. I do not believe in second-guessing the autonomy of such victims.

    Though I am an atheist, I believe in many of Christianity’s lessons. I believe in loving the sinner and hating the sin. I also believe we live in a society which demonizes criminals and glorifies crime. (If you doubt this, you haven’t been watching enough TV.) I believe for this reason that encoding into law the maxims of religion is futile.

    I believe in the inevitability of human will. I do not believe that outlawing abortions will stop them from happening. I believe abortions should be safe, legal, and rare.

    There are, I’m sure, a million objections you will raise to these points. All of them begin with “But….” Yes, but! That is the essential argument. From reading your blog, I gather you have little confidence in the capabilities of government. How do you trust it, then, to navigate the vast maze of complexities around this issue, every twist and turn another “but”?

    Because you think it’s simple. This, I have concluded, is our fundamental difference. I believe life is complicated.

  20. Betty says:

    I think that a female perspective can be useful here. I carried two baby boys to full term and had no drugs at all with the first pregnancy ( I was 18 & 19). These precious babies ARE MINE, given to me by GOD. I could no more look at my baby than I could at my puppy and “blame” the “donor” They were brought into being through MY body and are precious. I also have a ggod friend who does not believe in God as I do and regrets her abortion big time and always will.
    I would challenge anyone who can be in the least bit callous about abortion to go work in an abortion mill for a month in the job of disposal and tell me why a woman has a right to murder.
    Also, life is only as hard as you make it. I find it quite enjoyable and easy

  21. Ryan says:

    Betty, I appreciate your opinion, but if children are all “gifts from god”, then why would he choose to deliver some of those gifts via gang rape?

  22. Math says:

    Betty: thankfully you had the freedom to choose to carry your children to term. For example in China, you would have had to give up your second child. But as with all freedoms, that freedom implies the possibility of choosing the other option, and the possibility of regretting your choice.

  23. Betty says:

    Ryan…God does not control the world…Satan is alive and well as are his minions…..we have the free will, which can lead us to bad decisions, but He will always be there to turn “what was meant for harm into something good” to paraphrase Joseph.

    Math…My first born died of a brain tumor 2 years ago, and the pain was indescribable, however clinging to God helped me through it. That certainly was not a choice, but I did experience the loss all the same and a day does not go by that I do not think of him, but I am able to do it with warm reflections.

    My point is, sooner or later, most of these women will reflect on it, whether when they see a child of the same age, or see a picture of an unborn. To pretty up what IS MURDER and say it is OK, convenient or any other excuse does not change the matter.

  24. Betty says:

    I probably should apologise, I do not usually comment on any blogs. I do not have your debate skills, but I was born in 1950 and have seen lots of propoganda in my days, and have vowed to not sit idly by any more. I will call a spade a spade. Abortion is murder and welfare is slavery.May God bless and keep you all, and may his face shine upon you , and may His son Jesus be you personal Lord and savior.God is not up for election, nor does he need your vote on anything .
    B….basic
    I….instructions
    B…before
    L….leaving
    E….earth

  25. Betty,
    Thank you for your comments. No need to apologize, you are contributing to the discussion.

  26. Math says:

    Betty: I don’t understand a comment you made, how is welfare slavery? I’m agains state-sponsored welfare for able-bodies people (I agree to a certain level for the elderly or disabled), but for different reasons, I just don’t see the link with slavery.

  27. Ryan says:

    Betty,

    If god is all-powerful, and created the world, then he could prevent rape. If he exists in the way the bible says he does, then he has the power to do whatever he wants. Unless of course you believe that the person who was raped somehow deserved it and is better off for it.

    And welfare is slavery? Wow. Isn’t welfare pretty much exactly what Jesus taught?

    I’m sorry to hear about your son. I can’t even imagine going through that. I wish, however, you would take credit for making it through that tragedy in one piece. You did that yourself. I hear so many Christians who have done incredible things give credit to god for their triumph. It’s so sad.

  28. Jonah says:

    Ryan,

    There’s absolutely nothing sad about believing in God. (Unrelated note: why don’t you capitalize “God” or “Bible”? Do you leave other names and book titles uncapitalized?) There’s also nothing untrue about such beliefs helping people through tough times. I think you and I may be atheists in rather different senses of the word.

  29. Betty says:

    Welfare=slavery. The people caught in the welfare trap are stuck on the plantation. They have absolutly no self confidence. They are given a pittance, and led to believe that they can not survive on their own skills, and are punished by a reduction in payment if they try to reach for the second rung of the ladder. They can not see that to go through a few bad years can lead to a long life of self sufficientcy, thus those {the holder of the purse} keep them in bondage. They are fed fear, no one else will give you what you “deserve” no one else cares… you can not do it on your own…

    Another great propaganda that drives me crazy… I have witnessed the demonizing of men and it makes me sick. Look at the commercials and sit coms… they love to make men look incompetant and stupid…tell me exactly who this benefits? And now they are once agin trying to tell the kids that they are smarter than the older generation, grade school kids mind you. In my time it was the 18- 25 crowd that were told not to trust anyone over 30.

    Personally, I believe that anyone who does not seek God and His son Jesus is very afraid that they have to give up the perceived power that they believe they have over their own life. This is NOT so. It gives you inner peace and fills that God shaped hole everyone has in their own heart, which in turn enables you to share that Love you have received.

    My son was a successful veteranarian, age 38, when he was diagnosed with a tumor in the brain stem. His wife of 10 years threw him out of his house and tried to keep him from seeing his three kids. When his condition progressed to where he could hardly see and could not walk, I brought him home with me. I was blessed to be able to care for him. After his death, not only could I not think, I could not even put one foot in front of the other with out thinking about it. God does not cause cancer, and you do not catch it. Cancer develops due to something introduced to the body or something missing from the body. If it had not been for God’s very real presence, I could not have born it. My husband {not his father} and family were supportive, but they needed comfort too and looked to me for their comfort . Now this will sound verrrrrry stupid to non believers and many believers alike, but I asked God one day to show me a sunflower, my sons favorite, to let me know that he was now ok and with God. I immediatly regeretted asking and testing God and told God I was sorry. Later that same day I went outside and on the small hillside at my home were about a hundred sunflowers, some in bloom and some in bud, ther were even three growing in my gravel driveway. Now enough people have told me “yeah right” that I don’t usually share this anymore, but it started my healing process right then and there. It harms me not in the least to encounter people who do not know God, I just find it very sad that they deprive themselves.

    Thank you Red Pill for your kind words, I always look forward to your comments on MM & HA, although you greatly intimidate me, I do admire your dilligence.

  30. Betty,

    Thank you again for sharing.

    You are exactly right about welfare and the propaganda of the godless media. There is spiritual warfare raging, and the battle is for people’s minds. The Socialist “Welfare State” is a prison/plantation for people’s minds. Or, as Morpheus said in The Matrix:

    Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work… when you go to church… when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
    Neo: What truth?
    Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind.

    Thank you for sharing your sunflower story. That is a special testimony.

    Thank you Red Pill for your kind words, I always look forward to your comments on MM & HA, although you greatly intimidate me, I do admire your dilligence.

    Thank you for your kind words.

    Why do I greatly intimidate you? (It’s not my intent to intimidate anyone)

  31. Betty says:

    Ryan… I realize that I did not answer your question about God preventing bad things. God gives all men free will during our very short time span on earth…the point being to discover true love. Just as a parent could prevent any skinned knees on a child by locking him in a cage, that is not the point. We will all encounter bad things by being in the wrong place at the wrong time or by making bad choices…the point is God suffers WITH us when we do and is always there to give the ultimate comfort of his love. God gave Adam & Eve 1 commandment, and they broke it…He then expanded on it and gave us 10 commandments through Moses so mabe further explanation would clarify it for us, same result. Jesus reverted to simplification with 2 Love the Lord your God and your neighbor. It should be so easy and yet man Makes it hard. Now I personnaly think God would have better results by thumping us on the head, but he still has faith in us that we will get it right. Love demanded rather than freely given, no matter how stupid we can be, is not true love.

    Red Pill,
    I did not mean your intimidation as an insult, rather it is acknowledgement of , to me, a mind that I greatly admire and love to listen to. I believe that we have a lot of basic beliefs in common, but I could never communicate them with your eloquence.
    I do not know if any of you read American Thinker.com but they have 2 excellent articles today that explain slavery=welfare better than I.
    Paul Shlichta..the stimulas bill smeels like turpentine
    Ed Kaitz..hiow democracies become tyrannies
    Sorry, I do not know how to link

  32. Math says:

    Jonah: Why do you note that he doesn’t capitalize god and bible, yet say nothing when they capitalize He, His and any other word related to god?

  33. Betty,

    Thank you once again for your kind words. It’s nice to receive positive feedback. I have found, over time, that those who disagree with you tend to be more vocal than those who agree with you. So again, it’s always nice to hear from those who agree with you, but had previously kept quiet.

    While I first set up this blog in September 2006, I didn’t do much with it until March 2008. Most of the blog commenting that I did was on other people’s blogs, such as HotAir.com.

    Over the last 13 months, I have invested countless hours in blogging at HotAir.com, here, and at MichelleMalkin.com. I don’t make any money from blogging, and it has taken significant time away from my business.

    I hope that the time I have spent has helped make at least a little bit of a positive difference. Comments like yours encourage me.

    I have been neglecting my business a little too much, and am now entering a very busy time. I really need to devote more time to my business and less time to blogging.

    I do read American Thinker.com, and they frequently have excellent articles. They understand the threat that Socialism/Communism poses to our country, and how people in our own government are trying to take us ever further into Socialism/Communism.

    Here are the links to the articles you mentioned:

    The Stimulus Bill Smells of Turpentine
    Paul Shlichta

    How Democracies Become Tyrannies
    Ed Kaitz

  34. Jonah says:

    Math: Fair question. I guess I find the tradition of capitalizing such pronouns sort of endearing, so I don’t really question its use. I’m more likely to take note when it’s subverted.

    Nevertheless, I stand by this irregularity. Capitalizing pronouns whose antecedent is God is perfectly consistent with Christian thought; by contrast, there’s no rule of atheism that says you should leave the names of fictional people uncapitalized.

  35. Previously posted on September 21, 2008:
    Don’t Be A Fool

  36. Betty says:

    ITTRP
    It sounds like you might be a tax consultant? If so, this year should be very interesting. I just completed the taxes on the trust I manage and it looks like the government is in for quite a shortfall if this return is any indication. Prepare for a huge increase in taxes.

  37. Ryan says:

    Jonah – You’re right, I should have capitalized The Bible, and I suppose, the word God, when referring to a character, real or fictional. I usually don’t capitalize God, since I am not talking about a specific god, since I don’t believe there is one. I always capitalize the word Jesus, for instance.

    I concede that belief in a higher power can help people through hard times. Do you think that is reason to believe?

  38. Jonah says:

    Not reason enough for me, no. But there are certainly people for whom that is enough, and I don’t begrudge them that decision.

    Betty, I’d also like to welcome you to the blog. Though you and I disagree on many issues, I’m always glad to have another voice in the conversation.

  39. Ryan says:

    Jonah, I agree completely with that. I have bowed my head at funerals in prayer to join the others in whatever comforts them. I’ve talked about what it might be like on the other side with a person near death, seeing that it makes them feel better. The irony here is that a Christian may see that as lying.

    I do think it is sad that so many people believe in a god. I think that we would be much better off if people spent their time on Earth thinking that something better is coming after life. I think it’s sad that certain leaders in this world have made decisions affecting millions of lives based on the fact that the world will end soon, and Jesus will take the special people away to paradise.

  40. Ryan says:

    In my last comment, I meant to say that I think it would be better if we spent out time on Earth NOT thinking that something better was coming after life.

  41. Betty says:

    Thank you Jonah. Ryan, I understand where you are coming from, however this nations founding fathers would not agree with you. They lived under different rules of the land, and knew that it took a moral nation, not one that thinks of today only to succeed.
    Also, I personally do not believe that Jesus is returning only for the special people as you stated. I believe all of God’s children are special. Jesus said to be absent from this body is to be in the presence of the Lord. I believe that some of us will require a little more education…every knee will bow. Just as we give death row inmates years of appeals, I believe all will be given every chance possible. Apersonal encounter certainly dispels as nothing else can. However, it is also stated, it will be better for those who believe without seeing. Experiencing an all encompassing hug and word from God is awsome, however the depths that you have to get to to experience it makes me hesitant to recommend it for all. It is darkest before the dawn

  42. Math says:

    Betty: you seem to imply that you can’t be a moral person without Jesus or God or whatever. I consider myself to be a good person, yet I don’t believe in any of those. I would go as far as to say that I’m good by your God’s standards, minus the belief in God of course. How do you explain that?

  43. Betty says:

    Math; I absolutly think you can be a moral person and not have to state a belief in God or Jesus. If you are a moral person, you are already living by God’s standards with only the exception of loving The Lord Your God. However since living by His standards does show Love, maybe He is ok with it. If not He will give you a royal thump on the head when He deems it necessary. I believe that we only cheat ourselves by not accepting his love with acknowledgement. I look at God in a whole different light after becoming a parent than I did before. He is a Parent, which I can relate to. No matter what my sons did, I do not think it would be possible for me to stop loving them. Each child requires a differen touch. I firmly believe that our last chance to accept and revere God is in a face to face at the moment of death. God is always where you left him. He can be close at hand, put on a shelf, or buried deep, but He does not go away and abandon you.

  44. Math says:

    “I believe that we only cheat ourselves by not accepting his love with acknowledgement.” -Betty

    Ha gotcha you forgot to capitalize his! (sorry couldn’t resist) ;-)

    But more seriously. You think you know there is a god, and that he will accept you for eternity in his heaven, with nice wings, a white toga, an aureola and a little harp, but you really don’t. I think I know there is none. Because those who know are dead and are not coming back to tell tale, we can’t establish without any certainty that either of us is right or wrong. But in absence of evidence to the contrary, scientific method dictates that we discard the theory of an existence of God until otherwise proven, which is my position.

    By the way, if I can make a tangent, that simple notion is at the center of the ID/Evolution debate. ID is not science because the very notion of faith is based on belief, not fact. If you could prove that there is a God, and that he created the Earth, then you wouldn’t need faith now would you, you wouldn’t need to believe you would know. But since ID relies on something that can’t be proved, it goes against everything scientific. It starts with a conclusion and tries to fit in the rest of the methodology.

    You keep referring to your children. I don’t have the joy of being a parent yet, but you do realize that there is a perfectly sound biological and behavioral explanation to their birth and the unconditional love you have for them, right? It can be explained without any reference to God.

    If you could prove to me the existence of God, and that the whole religious process was worth anything to me, you would see me at church every Sunday. Until then, I’ll reserve judgment.

  45. Jonah says:

    Yes, the scientific method is rather incompatible with “faith.” But surely you’ve noticed by now that the people to whom you’re speaking don’t accept the scientific method. Why do you expect such an appeal to make an impression.

    And, sorry, but I’m just having a lot of trouble getting over your handle. Are you a math student? If so, surely you’ve spent much time accepting as axioms statements which have no basis in fact. It is often said that math is the only religion which can prove itself to be one. Why do we “believe in” the axiom of choice? Because it’s useful. I find it bizarre that solids of different volumes could be equidecomposable, but I’d much rather live in a world where that is possible than one in which the product of nonzero cardinals could be zero.

    So it is with religion. If Betty wants to believe in axioms with both strange and beautiful consequences, it’s hard to judge that. Especially when, as above, she expresses those beliefs so eloquently.

  46. Betty says:

    Math; You got me…I took typing in 1966…it has been awhile, and I tend to type faster than I should, thus the errors. There is only One who can convince you of God and it certainly is not me, any church, or even the Bible. All the rest can do is give you some of the History (His Story) I have found that the church is more of a social club than a true teaching institution. I share my faith, although for many years, remember I am a boomer, it was not a thing that was done. That is why I say you only cheat yourself. I can not fathom why anyone would think that we would only be here for 80 or so years and that is it. As you age you will come to realize that your spirit does not get old like your body does, That is why some people resort to acting like fools , to prove it. That works out well, doesn’t it? If you do not share my faith, I don’t automatically write you off as a heathen…you are still God’s child in my eyes and His.
    I do not believe we will just fly around playing harps either. I believe we will have jobs, and differing responsibilities and a fullfilled existance. ( I for one hope that we will still have thunderstorms as I greatly enjoy them)

  47. Ryan says:

    I’m glad you’re here Betty – it’s nice to chat with someone so non-judgmental.

    I’m an atheist, but also an agnostic. I don’t have any belief in God, but acknowledge that one cannot know for sure. I have been asked about Pascal’s wager, and what I would do or say if I faced God upon my death. I would smile, hold my head high, and say “I’m pleased to meet you”. I know that I have done my best to be a good person, and I know that any God that created me also created my inquisitive nature, my skepticism, and my ability to reason. Any god that created me knew that I would probably be an atheist. Any god that, upon my death, and assuming that I had managed to lead a good life, commits me to hellfire for eternity does not deserve my friendship any more than I deserve his. If hell is the consequence for reason, then if it exists, I shall be in very good company.

  48. Math says:

    Jonah: Math is diminutive for my name. I hated math in school, which is somewhat paradoxal since I graduated in engineering.

    I was quoting scientific method to explain my position, and to point out that promoters of ID distort it to serve their purpose.

    I agree that axioms are leaps of faith, but most of them will be eventually proved (or disproved). Religion is one axiom that can never be proven or disproven.

    Betty: I was just making a joke in reference to our previous discussion on capitalization. I must say it is refreshing to have a level-headed discussion on those subject matters, you are a breath of fresh air compared to what we’ve been used to (cough…John…cough)

    Ryan: I share your position: I don’t believe in anything for now, but you never know.

  49. Jonah says:

    Ah. That’ll show me to make assumptions.

    But, no, axioms are not things which will eventually be proven or disproven. They are, like a religion, things which cannot be proven or disproven. But they are also the foundations of formal thought.

  50. Betty says:

    Ryan & Jonah; When you get to heaven, I believe that God will Say “welcome my son” and I will be in the background saying”are you the Ryan & Jonah from the I took the red pill blog? And the God will laugh at the all of us, for making it all so complicated.
    Actually, I agree with you, if I thought for a moment that God would exclude good people, I would not want to go either.
    My faith is not an axiom, nor is it a religion. I may not be able to prove it to you, but it has definitively been proven to me.
    You would consider me certifiable if I told you half of what I have experienced (mostly when I was being my dumbest, which is why I know God laughs)
    Just the fact that you both do not just shout shut up is very endearing to me, and that is why I am sure of your future even if you are not. So there!

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