The Audacity of Deceipt

In Obama’s first week,
the audacity of deceipt

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48 Responses to The Audacity of Deceipt

  1. Jonah says:

    Well, are the documents you want covered by the FoIA? If so, you should make a formal request for them.

  2. Math says:

    Jonah: I doubt the only document he’s after (birth certificate) is covered under that act.

  3. Obama’s original birth certificate may very well show Kenya as his birthplace (even though his birth was later recoreded in Hawaii per their then-current laws allowing such). And his college records likely show him as an Indonesian citizen, here as an “International student”.

    Filing a FoIA request for these records would put the requestor on Obama’s “hit list”.

    If Obama were as “transparent” as he has promised to be, he would have already released these records.

  4. Jonah says:

    “Hit list”? Seriously? Please explain what you mean by that.

  5. Jonah says:

    And as a followup: I do agree that, in the interest of transparency, Obama should release those things. I also, frankly, think he has more important things to do. But yes, if it’s possible for him to release those things without it taking time away from keeping, you know, the economy from collapsing, then he should. Why not.

    However, keep this in mind. Your side has failed to provide reasonable doubt as to the authenticity of the COLB already released, relying instead on anonymous “photo experts” with no credentials and a willingness to believe that several Hawaiian officials are purposely lying when asked about the matter directly. You’re not going to convince the Supreme Court to take your side on this.

    So. I still don’t know enough about what documents are covered by FoIA to tell if the president’s college records or birth certificate are available under the act. If they’re not, no harm in asking for them. If they are, then what the hell are you sitting around for? Go request them. You’re clearly not going to see them any other way.

  6. Jonah says:

    And another thing. (Hmph. WordPress’s lack of an edit button sure causes a lot of n-tuple posting.)

    I do think we should keep some perspective here. When one talks about “transparency of government,” we’re talking about the ability for citizens to know what the government is up to: what it’s spending money on, what laws are being passed, what it’s doing abroad, etc. You know, the kinds of things that elections are supposed to be based on. Transparency in government does not mean, for instance, that there should be a webcam set up in the Lincoln bedroom.

    While one can argue that knowledge of the president’s birthplace is important, this is only true insofar as it determines eligibility for the office. Once we know from the state of Hawaii (or rather, once the conspiracy theorists are satisfied) that Obama was indeed born there, I see little reason that his college records should matter.

  7. 1) By “hit list” I’m referring to becoming a target of Stalinist, police state tactics.

    2) This is not innocent until proven guilty, this is unqualified until proven qualified. The burden of proof is always on the job candidate to prove that they are qualified for the job. The burden of proof is on Obama, not anyone else. It is a fact that VP Cheney and the 538 members of Congress inspected one certificate from Hawaii (the certificate of the electoral vote) but did not inspect the other certificate from Hawaii (the certificate of Obama’s birth). I know for a fact that one of my Senators took what the Associated Press and Annenberg Political Fact Check said at face value, even though both groups said things that were categorically untrue, and Congress essentially “outsourced” the verification of Obama’s birth certificate to these two biased, untrustworthy groups. Congress is guilty of malpractice for not doing their job. It was their responsibility to obtain the original birth certificate, directly from the state of Hawaii, and verify that Obama was indeed born in Hawaii.

  8. The birth certificate relates to location of birth (one of two factors relevant to Natural Born Citizen status, the other being the citizenship of the parents).

    The school records relate to Obama claiming citizenship of another country (Indonesia) after the age of 18, and therefore having relinquished any U.S. Citizenship he may or may not have had. That’s why the school records are relevant and need to be seen. However, nobody cares about Biden’s school records because they are irrelevant.

  9. Jonah says:

    No, Obama gave proof, namely the COLB. The burden of proof is on you to show that this is not actually proof. You haven’t done this.

  10. The COLB “proof” that Obama provided…

    1) …Is not the same thing as the original birth certificate, and does not show the name of the hospital where he was born. Obama has never provided proof of the hospital and attending physician at his birth. Obama and his sister have given different hospital names as his location of birth. No hospital in Hawaii has any record of Obama’s mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, being a patient in their hospital around the time of Obama’s birth.

    2) …First appeared on Daily Kos along with “Haye I.B Ahphorgerie” (“Hey! I Be A Forgery!”)

    3) …Was rightfully suspected of being a forgery.

    4) …The “hardcopy” was produced at the Obama Campaign headquarters, not by the State of Hawaii, and was only shown to a small, controlled, friendly audience.

    5) Neither the Daily KOS image nor the hardcopy were ever “verified” by the State of Hawaii.

    6) No Hawaiian official ever went on record saying that Obama was born in Hawaii.

    7) Both the Associated Press and Annenberg Political Fact Check published lies that were then distributed far and wide and were believed by many people.

  11. John says:


    No, the Phony One did not give any proof. The online image of what appeared to be a COLA is not proof of anything.

    The burden of proof is on him, according to the U.S. Constitution.

    ” . . . if the president-elect shall have failed to qualify . . . ”

    It isn’t up to us to qualify him, the burden of proof is not upon us, the burden of proof is upon him, it is up to the PE to qualify himself by presenting proof that he is eligible. This is one of the points made in one the suits filed by Orly Taitz. Thus far, he has not done so.

    Please don’t bore me with more mere words about what the USSC did or did not do, said or did not say. It doesn’t take a lawyer or a court to explain the meaning of the “consent of the governed” clause in the Declaration of Independence to any literate citizen. Everyone in our govenment is cowardly, is spineless, is in dereliction of duty right now, cowering under the very fear you mock at, the Stalinesque tactics that this Phony One and his thugs have thus far repeatedly used on ordinary Americans. (e.g., “get in their faces and argue with them”, the MO law being put on alert to go after those who contradicted him, the rapidity with which Joe the Plumber was publicly raped of his privacy, the threats of riots and the goons and their spokepeople who’ve made themselves known to be ready to take their hair-trigger dare to the streets, etc.)

    What elected official could win an election if the Phony One’s flunkies released to the public every private scrap of dirt they could dig up (using the illegal obtainment of private records, so easy to get by Democrat flunkies working in government agencies)? You saw what they did to Palin. That was a heads-up the likes of which we have never witnessed before. Now that that cat (big, dangerous cat) is out of the bag, you think it’ll go nicely back inside with a mere “please”? Worse. Perhaps you have not read what Biden & Co. did to a certain person who created an embarrassing stir about recent unseemly private behavior of the Phony One. You read about the jail time? You’ve heard of others, not so lucky, who disappeared into jail near the end of their lives? Who are you kidding? Who doesn’t hear the unspoken threat by the Bammi-thugs that dark alleys and lonely places–or for that matter, the broad daylight downtown–might become very dangerous for anyone who dares stand up to this phony bully thug? Who didn’t get the message when the Arkansas newscaster was brutally beaten (yeah, I know, the press says it was “random” violence and everybody can pretend we didn’t get any potential message, especially one to newscasters, huh.) Who doesn’t get the more recent message from the car-bombing in the same state? Who doesn’t “get” these not-so-subtle “can’t-prove-nothin” clues? You? Poor baby. Jonah, why are YOU making excuses for this phony thug and his brownshirt goons?

    Or perhaps you’re one to laugh about paramilitary thugs in combat fatigues and black berets showing up at Pennsylvania voting sites wielding batons and making threatening gestures to voters who didn’t show proper respect (read: plan to vote) for the Phony One. If you don’t know what this all spells, then by all means go back to your daytime soaps and dancing with the sewage, and all the other pagan idols, American and otherwise, on that rabbit-eared puke-box, and just get out of the way and stay out of the debate. Some of us know the stakes here. Some of us have already put our lives and our sacred honor on the line for what you so loosely call freedom, and we’re not about to lie down and let some vile tart’s vermin offpring toting Mao’s little red book waltz across our chest without first diggin’ in our heels and saying “NO! OVER MY DEAD BODY YOU DO!”

    Thus far, the PE has failed to qualify. Note the active perfect verb form with “PE” for its subject. Qualify is something the PE has to do. The burden of proof is on him, as it says in the Constitution.

    No proof yet. Not president yet.

    I do not, and will not, call him president. He has already damaged his credibility with me beyond repair.

    There is only one purpose he can serve (assuming he was born in Hawaii) by withholding the vault birth certificate: he divides the country. For this he has irretrievably lost all of my respect.

    Let me say this again, because it is the central point of all of this nonsense:
    by refusing to show the whole country his real certified birth certificate, he takes a defiant stance the only outcome of which can be to divide the country, and he knows this. HE KNOWS THIS! Thus, he is deliberately thumbing his nose at the whole country and defying us to become divided. For this, I despise him. I DESPISE him! And I refuse to acknowledge him as my president.

    I know, you don’t approve of that. Life’s tough all over. I don’t approve of your or anyone’s bowing down to this phony thug and acting like all is well when he’s dragging us all to hell in a handbasket. You do whatever you want. I’m not going along with him, if I have to stand my ground in the middle of town at high noon facing him alone on an abandoned street and calling him a liar to his face. As for me and my house (this majority of one), we will serve the Lord.


  12. Ryan says:

    John said: “I refuse to acknowledge him as my president”

    John, the amount of people that will not acknowledge Obama as president is absolutely miniscule compared to the amount who would not acknowledge Bush as president. There will always be a bunch of people who hate the president. The country has been divided for several years now – it’s not because millions of people want to see the president’s birth certificate. It’s because millions of people are sick of the religious right trying to shove their own moral code down the throats of free thinking Americans.

    Don’t pretend that the reason you hate him is that he has not appeared at your doorstep with his original birth certificate and the actual doctor who delivered him. You don’t like him because, in your opinion he is a Muslim and also, at the same time, a Communist, Socialist, Marxist, and apparently, as you mentioned the other day, a person who murdered his own grandmother in cold blood.

    In fact, let us see YOUR birth certificate. I’d like to see confirmation that you were not born yesterday.

  13. Jonah says:

    Wow. Is this what ODS looks like?

    I give up. If you’re really willing to believe that Obama had something to do with the death of a TV newscaster (because he has all sorts of reasons to hate the media), the car bombing of a doctor (liberals hate doctors all the sudden?), and voter intimidation in one of Pennsylvania’s most liberal precincts, then there’s really nothing I can say to convince you that the president isn’t the antichrist.

  14. Jax says:

    AWESOME. Came for the John hysterics, did not leave disappointed. I have to say that Obama Derangement Syndrome is WAY more entertaining than Bush Derangement Syndrome ever could have thought of being. I think it’s because Bush’s crazy actions took previously sane people and drove them crazy, while Obama seems to make already crazy people EVEN MORE CRAZY.

  15. John says:

    Lyin, why don’t you quit pretending that you ever had an honest thought and just admit that you’re a very queer jackass who twists the words of others to make yourself appear to have a point because you don’t have the brains to make one on its own merits?

  16. John says:

    You several are willfully overlooking a long list of highly revealing recent events clearly demonstrating such a repugnant lack of ethics (to me, anyway) that I simply cannot dismiss the very deep impression that this thing-that-would-be-president instantiates the worst example of a human being that I have ever seen before in an American politician, and there have been many very bad ones in those many decades I can tell you. And don’t even bother with all the characteristic hyperventilating “Bush this!” and “Bush that!” fanatic knee-jerk distractions of the godless left; I am no fan of Bush, senior or junior, have criticized both, and will take no responsibility for either one on Judgment Day. I’m talking now about a man with no conscience, no feelings whatsoever. You can’t smell it? You didn’t see all that glaring evidence in plain sight during the recent campaign? You must have some very deep piles of sand there to bury your heads in. Evidently, you believe all pretty words and smiling faces, and you’ve never once in your lives bought a half-ounce bag of oregano or mint at fifty times its market value from someone you met on a dark street oozing that same practiced oily smile. I have learned, both from personal experience and from the corroborating testimony of The Book that a flatterer is an untrustworthy person, always, and his only business is, always, only deceit. It absolutely gives me the creeps when I attempt to imagine that man crying, because the thing strikes me as absolutely impossible for him. He has never shown the smallest indication that he is even capable of sorrow or shame. Creepy! Really, really, really creepy. I haven’t particularly liked any of the swaggering bigshots, but it is not impossible for me to picture a former president with a tear in his eye. This Big Odor is another thing altogether.

    This list of things evidences a reprehensible offhandedness about bald-faced dishonesty and a proclivity for conducting the dirtiest and most arrogant politics I have ever witnessed in this country. Never once did he rebuke those who did disgusting, disreputable, even illegal things on his behalf. What he did do, though, is so far beneath the dignity of even the lowest form of leadership responsibility that with this one statement, he proved that he lives in a mental sewer: “I want you to get in their faces, I want you to argue with them.” Those are not the words of a statesman, they are the words of a dictator, the words of an evil tyrant. There is no other way to spin that. Everyone with a working conscience is sickened by such words. Anyone who does not find such speech reprehensible is of the gutter. Job said it well when he talked of the “children of base men, whose fathers [he] would not have set [as in a kennel] among the dogs of the flock.” That’s how low a person that man is. Such a man shall never command my obedience or respect. I will not follow such a vile creature. I cannot, because I already serve a king who is worthy.

    There is a long list of really, really dirty pro-active tactics used by the BO and his campaign, and an equally long list of arrogant refusals to be candid and forthright with the voters. He acts as though he had a Constitutional right to be the president apart from facts or anyone eles’s opinion on the matter. Never in my lifetime has there been such a completely dishonest campaign for the presidency, such an obscene amount of money raised (using disreputable means!) (from probable overseas donors!), such willful ignorance on the part of every government gatekeeper, nor such blatant partisanship and clear outright promotion of one person and undermining of all others by the supposedly objective press. The cowardice that is on display here is the worst I have ever seen, or all of history is a fiction. All of this spells something that stinks to high heaven, yes, absolutely, and if you can’t smell it then you put yourselves beyond even my pity, absolutely deserving the kind of unthinking brutal domination that can but be the only possible outcome under the sway of this kind of monstrous beginning.

    Your many claims that the “voters” chose him to be the president is just another one of the big lies. No such thing just happened. He was not by any stretch of facts or reason chosen in a free and fair election by a reasonably informed majority of the electorate. He was chosen by an ill-informed mob in the shallowest sort of popularity contest based on a rank and loathsome kind of racism that was hammered into everyone’s forehead repeatedly, and backed up with veiled (and not so veiled) threats of violence if the one and only thing favoring his election was not the one and only thing allowed to influence it, and every other competing thought was forcibly silenced. We were, frankly, severely bullied. What a tragedy for black history that such a one as that (AS THAT!) should be the so-called first African American president. What a lost opportunity for such an event to have been a source of pride for African Americans. Instead, history will show it to have been a thing of shame. What a lousy statement it makes to posterity about the base frivolousness of this society’s values! And the behavior of the press was every bit as disgusting as the behavior of this worm of a man. Never before in my life has the term “railroaded” meant so intensely and accurately much as it does today. That election was the biggest sham robbery in American history, and I am quite convinced that history itself will bear me out on this. You’ve all got to be delusional or criminal or both to be defending that piece of trash after what we have seen and heard from him.

    Clearly, in your spiritual state of catatonic oblivion, you cannot hear the loud and clear voice of spiritual things, but connect all the smokescreen and bile with the fact that the man claims to be a Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ, for that (in his own words!) which is demonstrably mere base political reasons only–mere dead tools of flattery and crass manipulation!–when the claim is so transparently a lie, a claim so blatently contradicted by the policies he himself represents and promotes, that the Spirit speaks in no hesitant or uncertain way saying that that man is, yes absolutely, evil, vile, a man of the basest sort. This would still be hideously true if it were only for so casually speaking such a corrupting lie about his relationship with God and nothing more, but there is more, so much more. If ever there were a wolf in sheep’s clothing, that man is such a wolf! Christ warned us to beware of such men. I am warning you, because Christ warned me. Simple.

    I know, I know, next you’re going to ask if I believe that God personally tells me who is evil and who is not as though such a thing is completely absurd to you. But of course, it is quite clear that you who laugh with the rest of the godless world about anything pertaining to God also laugh at the idea that a real and living God is both real and living, and actually, yes, quite in fact, reveals Himself to those of us that love Him. Of course this Biblical idea is absurd to you, so save your breath. I don’t need for the question to be asked, since we all know that you are already thinking it, so I’ll answer it before your mockery can be formed into written words. Yes, I absolutely believe that God tells me who to be wary of, who to distrust and disbelieve for being an enemy of the cross of Christ. You got a problem with that? Tough. Who says I came here to teach YOU? I can’t even pity someone who rejects the living God. If you can swallow all of that evil as though you don’t even see it, then you’re not the kind of person I could want for a friend or neighbor, and I certainly wouldn’t give a crap for your irrelevant opinions. If you are being lost for rejecting God, that’s your problem.

    If you want to be blind to the neon sign on that man’s forehead that says “EVIL”, despite all the evidence making it plain, that’s your business. Clearly, some of you are comfortable making and repeating calumnous lies (some of you more deliberately and mean-spiritedly than others), as is evidenced just above, and lies therefore do not bother you. Perhaps you make excuses for him because you are as dishonest and evil as he is. What’s that to me. But, despite what appears to be your fondest expectation, you are not the most important thing in the universe for me to address.

    I never said he murdered his grandmother. How typical for a practitioner of lies to twist a man’s true words into a lie never spoken and throw the unspoken lie back in his face as if he should answer for it! I asked if the man might be capable of such a thing. I asked if the all-too-convenient fact of her reported death could have been something other than coincidence, something planned, something perpetrated, yes, a murder. I asked this because I think things are serious enough now and the circumstantial constellation of known facts and timings are such that the question is legitimate, not because the answer is assumed. We have certainly heard a rumor that he was a hired murderer for the CIA, so the question did not just jump unprovoked out of the blue. And in my considered opinioin, that is the only secenario (THE ONLY SCENARIO!) thus far mentioned in all the many blogs and news outlets I have read that fully explains all of the known facts, including the dumbstruck reluctance of the opposition party to even question the obvious stench surrounding him. And the question, “Why did he hide his grandmother from his children?” is pregnant with implications, few of them potentially good, and remains unanswered. I could likewise begin to wonder with just as valid reason if some of you might also be capable of such an act, as it increasingly appears that your conscience also is that defective. If a man will lie, he will steal. If a man will steal, he will murder. There is nothing irrational in such an application of plain common sense. Why are you defending a liar? What is it about you that makes you so eager to see Barrabbas set scott free rather than Christ? What is your interest in the sucess of a man who fits exactly the pattern of behavior and the mold of personal character of every known murderous dictatorial tyrant in history? Are you malevolent? Or are you just plain deaf? And the latter seems so unlikely to me. How gullible you must be that you raise your eyebrows at the idea that a worldly ruler could be capable of murder. Just how do you suppose that men climb over their competition to reach the pinnacles of power in this wicked world, by picking daiseys and doing flower arranging?

    And yes, it but makes sense to conclude that there is no limit to the evil that an evil man might do. No stretch there. You are quite ignorant of history if your mind doesn’t prepare you to have a healthy no-holds-barred scepticism for anyone who rises so fast from out of recent obscurity to become the leader of the whole world AND IS STILL OBSCURE, considering all of the regicides, fratricides, matricides, and other demonic things some men have done, must do, and will sometimes do in order to seize power.

    So is it my turn now to start calling you clowns some really mean contemptuous names? I mean, that is, in an ad hominem manner somewhat like those of which you yourselves are plainly so fond.


  17. John says:


    I’m here to get in your face and argue with you. Count on it


  18. Math says:

    OK, so now the CIA murdered his grandmother. U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-A-B-L-E

  19. Jonah says:


    I’m sorry if it seems I’m being mean by calling you delusional. I certainly don’t intend to be. But you have to understand something: Barack Obama is the first politician in my lifetime to really articulate the positions I support. I mean, sure, in a perfect world Kucinich would be president and there would be no struggles, but Obama combined those ideals with a pragmatism that I’d never seen before and, frankly, probably won’t see again for quite some time.

    So I supported him. I canvassed in swings states on weekends, donated money when I could, and argued online with people like you whom I felt could potentially see the light. And I don’t regret any of it, even the debating. I still believe (and our conversation here a few weeks ago confirmed this) that conservatives are generally good people, and perfectly capable of empathy with the left if only we talk to them.

    With this in mind, when you call this candidate–the one with whom I agree on just about every issue and who renewed my faith in the thoughtfulness of politicians–an evil tyrant and a vile man of the basest sort, I hope you understand why I’m offended. In fact, it looks like you’re calling me evil. I’m not evil, okay? I’m a moral atheist, and I’m bothered that you don’t respect that. But I’m not willing to believe you’re a hateful person (again, our back and forth earlier convinced me otherwise), so my only other conclusion is that you’re delusional, and the Obama you hate isn’t the Obama with which I so strongly identify.

    Sorry if that’s mean, but I’m only returning the sentiment.

  20. Frin says:


    I read John’s rather vile piece full of the worst sort of innuendo and rumor and wondered how an man who professes to be Christian can be so full of hate. I couldn’t even begin to compose a response to it – I’m in awe of you that you could come up with such a reasoned and fantastic response.

  21. Jonah,
    I applaud your respectful reply to John.

    I believe that many on the left and the right actually want the same things (peace, life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, etc.) but have very, very different views on how to get there.

    You said that “Barack Obama is the first politician in my lifetime to really articulate the positions I support”. There are a lot of things Obama articulates (no earmarks, no lobbyists, etc.) that are great promises, but he has no intention of keeping those promises. He said tonight that the “stimulus” doesn’t contain any earmarks… that is a flat out LIE.

    Look at his long list of cabinet nominations who have been lobbyists, tax cheats, or both.

    I share your desire to see a moral and just society. I share your desire to see leaders rise up who truly want what’s best for this country.

    Unfortunately, Obama is not what you think he is. He is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He is a Marxist who is intent on bringing down, not raising up, this country.

    Please watch both videos here:

    Realize how right on target Peter Schiff has been, and how this “stimulus” will not be a stimulus at all…it will be a “depressant”.

  22. John says:

    There is no such thing as a moral atheist. If you are an atheist, then you are, yes, evil. When you say there is no God, you call God a liar, pick up the hammer and nails, and come after me. Pretending that things are otherwise is just calling my God a liar and me a liar, too. But I’m going to stand my ground and call you the liar. This is what you do, what you will do. I have no pity for you. No respect for you. I would not stand under the same roof with you for fear the God of heaven would drop it on your head for your brutal arrogance.

    I knew there had to be a reason you were defending that vile man. Yes, it would seem that this is what I am calling you, too. You don’t like that? Tough.

    So, if that’s what you believe, you can go to hell with him. Don’t write. Don’t come back.

    End of discussion. Drop dead.


  23. John says:

    If you’re an atheist, then I don’t give a crap what you think.


  24. Jonah says:

    I’ll admit it: I’m stunned. I never expected such a hostile response.

    Unlike you, John, I don’t want you to go to hell, nor do I want you to drop dead. I do pity you, but for different reasons. (I would make a great Christian. It’s too bad I can’t force myself to believe something.) Nevertheless, I agree with you on the penultimate point: this conversation is over.

    Now, Red, we’ve got to talk. I’ve been reading this blog for one reason, and that’s to (attempt to) have rational conversation with conservatives like you. Heckling with the other liberals isn’t all that fun, and there are way better places for that anyway.

    Since exactly half of the conservative regulars here just told me to piss off, I’m left wondering if it’s worth sticking around at all. And of all the commenters here, there’s none you’ve praised more regularly than John. So I have to ask: do you agree with him? Do my (lack of) religious beliefs make me not worth speaking to? If so, I’ll vanish; no sense wasting my time talking to (at?) people who literally think I’m evil incarnate. But if not, I’ll stick around, even though you’re the only one still listening. We still have a lot to discuss.

    Let me know.

  25. John,
    I am ashamed of you. Do you think that you are showing Christ’s love by telling Jonah:

    go to hell

    Drop dead.

    If you’re an atheist, then I don’t give a crap what you think.

    Is that the example Jesus Christ gave us?


    But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

    Romans 5:8

  26. Jonah,

    Do my (lack of) religious beliefs make me not worth speaking to?

    If I thought that, I wouldn’t have been speaking to you previously. I believe that we are all created equal, and since every human being has worth and value in God’s eyes, every human being has worth and value in my eyes.

    While I never considered myself an atheist, I did consider myself an agnostic from the age of about 14 to the age of 23. So, I think I can relate at least a little bit to where you are coming from.

    We all have potential to do tremendous good and tremendous evil. I believe that there is a spiritual “dimension” surrounding us, beyond the three dimensions that we can perceive, and that things that happen in the unseen do affect things that happen in the seen. Each and every human being is surrounded by spiritual forces of good (God) and spritual forces of evil (Devil). There is spiritual warfare being fought over us, and the side we listen to the most will be the side that influences our behavior the most. God works through people on Earth. So does the Devil.

    Even if you don’t belive in God vs. Devil, you believe in good vs. evil.

    Focusing on doing good to others is commendable, and a positive thing for our society. I commend that behavior, but I also feel obliged to tell you this truth: good works won’t get you into heaven.

    For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

    Ephesians 2:8-10

    If so, I’ll vanish; no sense wasting my time talking to (at?) people who literally think I’m evil incarnate. But if not, I’ll stick around, even though you’re the only one still listening. We still have a lot to discuss.

    I don’t think you are evil incarnate. I think all of us – you, me, John, all of us – were born with a sinful nature, along with a need to seek truth. I sought the truth, and I found it. Jesus is the truth. I didn’t initially find that truth in written form; I found it through the lives of people who lived that truth.

    Please do stick around, although I am entering a very busy time in my business, and I may not always be very quick to respond.

  27. Ryan says:

    Mr. Pill,

    We have had some spirited debates, and have taken a few jabs at one another, but your level-headed response here demands a great deal of respect. You sound like a smart guy. I find it fascinating that people come to such different conclusions about the workings of the world we live in, but it doesn’t make me hate those with whom I disagree. There were a few years in my late teens where I became a Christian, but I was inquisitive, and things just didn’t add up. Unfortunately there are very few places where you can speak of these things without getting flamed.

    Jonah – very nice response to John.

  28. Jonah says:

    Please do stick around[.]


  29. John says:

    “Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.” (I Tim 5:20)

    “Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.” (Eph 5:11)

    “He that believes not is condemned already.” (John 3:18)

    Unlike you, ITtRP, I have no interest in winning the praise of godless men.

    And I am ashamed of you because you obviously do, but I am not ashamed of what I wrote.

    “But Peter said unto him ‘Thy money perish with thee.'” — (Acts 8:20)

    “If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: for he that bids him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” (II John 10-11)

    The trouble with these atheists who imagine themselves to be “good” people is that they measure themselves by themselves. Seeing a criminal in the news, they say to themselves “Well, I’m not like that. I give to the poor, I obey the law, Oh thank me, I’m a good person.”

    Such people are not worthy of praise, but the atheist is certainly worth of condemnation.

    Godless people refuse to see the will of God in the work that Jesus Christ did on the cross. In so doing, they set up a false standard of judgment in which they are led blindly down that path that leads them to join the mob to commit murder and crucify Christ in their daily activities in a cumulative way that becomes all too clear at the end of time when it becomes illegal to profess faith in Jesus Christ. In their own minds it seems fine with them until then. They can pretend that they “never hurt anybody” and that this is sufficient to make them a “good” person, but when the mob begins shouting “Crucify him! Crucify him!” they shrink back in cowardice and participate with the mob to commit murder. We know that they will do this, because the writings of the prophets testify to this–Christ told us this. This is why I will not permit an atheist to pretend to being a “good” person in my presence, but will set the record straight, pulling no punches. They are condemned.

    The Kingdom of God is not a place for people who “never hurt anybody” but otherwise are no more worthy than the next average person. Such run-of-the-mill “keep-their-heads-down-and-make-no-waves” people are never going to be worthy of glory. There are two destinies: glory and damnation. There is no in-between. Either one is the pure gold of heroic character that is able to share in the holiness of God in the world to come and to share forever in the praise of the glory due to the Son of God for His heroic death for His friends in sacrifice for sin, or one is trash, chaff, worthless waste, to be thrown into the oven and burned as not worth keeping.

    I don’t care that you are ashamed of me, Red; I will wear that insult in a crown of special glory you yet know nothing of. I am ashamed of you because you still do not understand that murder in self-defense is behavior unworthy of Christ, that is, worthy of the furnace, not of the Heavens.

    You don’t want me to hurt his feelings. I know that Christ wants me to hurt his feelings–and not just his, but the feelings of everyone who rejects the Son of God. He disgusts me. He brings out the most virulent kind of loathing in me, because he admits to being engaged even now in the murder of my King, Jesus Christ. Far better I let him and everyone like him know the depth of my implacable contempt for him and my belief that he certainly is worthy of damnation for that one thing, unbelief in God’s existence, than that I allow him to go his way without this warning. Why? Because I truly do believe that if something like thunder between his ears doesn’t shake him to his senses, he will certainly be damned. I see no reason to paper over that with pleasant words to spare his feelings. To hell with his feelings. He’s murdering my Lord, soon he’s going to murder me without a moment’s hesitation. Feed him, yes. Give him to drink, yes. But why should I give a damn about his petty stupid feelings?

    You quite plainly don’t understand enough about the message of Christ on the Cross to be judging me, and the proof of that is that you still appear to think that there is some kind of wordly solution to the devils’ takover. The ruler of this world is already condemned. Why are you still of the mind that replacing one man with another will fix anything? The foolish atheist judges himself when he says that he does not believe in God (and thus, the resurrection of the dead). According to the scriptures, after we preach the gospel to all the world, those who believe will be saved, and those who do not believe will be damned. The atheist condemns himself. I am simply saying that I’m not going to waste my time in the frustration of trying to beg a lost soul to be something otherwise JUST TO PLEASE ME. He isn’t my friend, he isn’t my neighbor, he is my enemy! Far better, yes, LOVE, that I let the lost soul know just how much contempt I have for its wicked faithlessness, for the perversity of its standard of judgment. I have nothing to say to an atheist but “be afraid and go to hell”. If you think this is different that what Christ is saying to him, then you must be reading something other than the Word of God, and you must believe in some other gospel than the Gospel of Jesus Christ, because the Gospel of Jesus Christ condemns the atheist to the resurrection of eternal damnation. “And they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.” (Isaiah 66:24) “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Dan 12:2) Knowing this, can you call it “love” to sit and talk with someone heading toward that eternal burning death, that state of everlasting shame and contempt to simply smile and chat? Can any honest person really call it “hate” to honestly and courageously warn the man, even in the face of all your expected collective harassment, that in his present condition his life is worth less than feces, being uncompromisingly truthful about its real, honest, actual, no-flattery lack of all worth?

    I wasn’t sent to preach to the damned. I have enough trouble trying to bring Christians like you, who pervert the gospel, to their senses, and that is all the grief I care to deal with right now. After they throw me in prison and there’s no one around to talk to but those who are being lost, perhaps I’ll take a different tack. But right at the moment I have my hands full with shallow superficial Christains like yourself without worrying what some damned atheist thinks about my message.

    Have you never read the scripture wherein it is written that Jesus said “Woe unto you! How can you hope to avoid the damnation of hell?” Or, “But Jesus answered her not a word.” And then, when His own disciples begged him to deal with the pervert, he did so for their sakes and turned to the woman and said, “It is not right to give the children’s food to the dogs.” You, ITtRP, are the wishy-washy please-everyone person who does not understand the will of God, not I. The man tells you that he is an atheist and you still treat him like some kind of friend? You want to be the world’s friend? Then you are no friend of mine. And, as far as I am concerned, until and unless you figure out which side you’re on, you can go with him.

    I would much sooner infuriate the atheist so that he goes for my jugular and punts me out of this cesspool you call a home than ply him pointlessly with flatteries damaging to both of us. At least no one need wonder whose side I’m on, Christ, or those who cry “Crucify Him!” You see, I understand what Jesus was doing when he shouted at the Jewish leaders “Go ahead, then, and fill up the measure of your fathers (who murdered the prophets)!” In other words, “Bring it on, demons! Do your worst!” Seeing that this is all our mutual destiny, then, why is it that you still want worldly friends and worldly approval? The shame, the insults, the blasphemy, you want to drag it all out? When are you going to wake up and stop shaming the face of Christ, ITtRP? The Christian message is that “whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world, is the enemy of God.” When are you, ITtRP, going to begin to stand on the same side with the one you claim?


  30. John says:

    The atheists say they don’t hate those with whom they disagree.

    But their own words prove them liars even in this. It’s just more of their obvious lies. One atheist is more subtle than another, but the same dynamic is at work: self-delusional lies.

    Whether the contemptible insults are openly hurled, or hidden within, whether the snide sneers, the belittling mockery is cast in our faces, or held in reserve, every atheist harbors a very real hatred of the servants of God, with whom he disagrees. The man who has no fear of God, i.e., the wicked man, “flatters himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.” He keeps insisting that he is a good man, that he does not hate anyone. It is just another of his many lies. But all too often I have seen the real devil that lurks within when it finally loses patience and lashes out when its integrity is revealingly questioned. Whenever the mob inside him shouts “Crucify Him!” he is there, reaching for a hammer, shaking his fistful of nails at the godly man. To assert otherwise is to call God a liar, and everyone who worships God, as God’s Word makes plain. These men are liars, period. All of them. They hate the righteous. All of them. That’s a blunt thing to say, yes. It is also a true thing to say. If it hits them like a ton of bricks, it is only because the words are true.

    “There is a way that seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” (Prov 14:12) Why should you flatter someone who follows such a way (the way of a “moral” atheist)? What is it about your understanding of the Gospel that makes you so timid that you would encourage him in such folly? (“Even if you don’t believe in God vs Devil, you believe in good vs evil . . .” blather, blather.) What sort of pathetic excuse is this? This is disgusting, contemptable flattery, ITtRP. And God is not simply “spiritual forces of good”, man, He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He is personal. He has feelings. (“Jesus wept.” John 11:35) What is it that makes you so embarrassed, dare I say ashamed, to be forthright in defending Him against one who says that He is a lie, he does not exist? I don’t see this as gentle and compassionate. On the contrary, how cowardly! Perhaps it is you that do not exist! (How does that make you feel?)

    I hate the lie. I hate evil, the real enemy of Christ. But it is not my job to punish those who are clearly or self-admitedly full of it. I will leave that to God. As it says in the scriptures, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.” Revenge is for God, not for me. But should I not warn the wicked man? As God lives, I will certainly warn the self-admitted atheist that God will soon destroy him. I would not lift my hand against his person, but neither would I pal around with him or pretend to be friendly toward him, a person who sickens me with his open mockery of the purity of Christ and all that says about his corrupted conscience. If I were to harbor hatred for the man and work to do him ill, and he be found innocent, would not God find this out? Would not God Himself judge me? But I submit myself to God’s judgment and I trust God’s judgment to be fair and true. I do not hate him. I tell him that he is now condemned by God and that I want nothing more to do with him. (In fact, this warning is an act of love, even if you cannot see it.) But even if I were to condemn the godless man myself, should I then also be condemned? I believed, therefore have I spoken. Now, if I am a godless man, and I have condemned someone for being a godless man, then by all means, let me, too, be condemned. But there is no hypocrisy in me in this, nor need I fear condemnation in this, because I am quite sure that despite my sins, my gross imperfections, I am not an utterly godless man such as every self-proclaimed atheist certainly is.

    My rebuke is not snide, it is not sneering mockery; it is quite to the point of the evil, as it should be. Every atheist deceives himself just to be able to live with himself and to be able to sleep; every atheist lies to the rest of us about what is truly in his heart, since he is cold to the touch of the Spirit and yet wishes us to falsely believe that he is capable of compassion. But the fact that he can look at the crucifixion knowing what the Christian says about it, what the prophets say about it, without feeling any personal shame or remorse makes it nevertheless clear to those who do listen to the voice of the Spirit that deep within his value system he is a cold, cruel, and heartless person who has no sense of shame for his own sins. Such a person is not to be trusted, to say the least.

    Some misrepresent what God’s Word says about God’s thoughts concerning such a godless man. God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, yes, FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE. God loved US (WHO BELIEVE HIM) when we were still sinners, yes. However, listen to what the Word of God says about God’s thoughts toward the godless man: “The Lord tries the righteous” BUT “the wicked and him that loves violence, his soul hates.” (Psalm 11)

    “God is angry with the wicked every day” (Psalm 7:11)

    “The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.” (Psalm 10:4 )

    Now that God has defined the wicked man (i.e., an atheist), how does God feel toward him?

    “A righteous man hates lying: but a wicked man is loathsome and comes to shame.” (Prov 13:5)

    “The lamp of the wicked shall be put out.” (Prov 13:9)

    “The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the Lord” (Prov 15:26)

    “He that justifies the wicked and he that condemns the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.” (Prov 17:15) (ITtRP?)

    “He that says to the wicked, Thou art righteous; him shall the people curse, nations shall abhor him.” (Prov 24:24) (ITtRP?)

    “Let favor be shown to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the Lord.” (Is 26:10)

    You aren’t going to convert him by flattering him, ITtRP. But . . .

    “A wise king scatters the wicked, and brings the wheel over them.” (Prov 20:26)

    So how are you going to make me ashamed for believing God?

    “An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.” (Prov 21:4 ) (In other words, everything that the wicked man, the atheist, does, is sin, because it is infected with an arrogant pride. Every atheist thinks himself wiser than the Biblical God, greater than the Biblical God, more moral than the Biblical God. Pride. The sin of Lucifer, you may recall.)

    How should a saint feel about a wicked man?

    “I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.” (Psalm 26:5)

    For I know Him in whom I have trusted, and I know that I shall not be put to shame. Neither will I be condemned when I am judged. It is not evil to hate evil. The love of evil is not good, even if some might call it “love”. The hatred of evil is not evil, even if some might call it “hate”. The wicked are notoriously perverse in just this very way, that they twist and confuse the meaning of good and evil.

    Has a known servant of God never been blunt in making this adamant and inflexible rejection known to a wicked man?

    “O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? And now . . . thou shalt be blind” (Acts 13:10-11) Of which Luke says that this was “the doctrine of the Lord” (Acts 13:12)

    So how then will you make me ashamed to have made it clear that I am not ashamed of the Word of God? How can you find fault when God’s Word shows me to be innocent and unworthy of your rebuke? But my rebuke will stand, because there is righteousness in it–not ill will, but simple truth.

    I don’t hate the worthless chaff, I despise it. There is a difference. I do not wish it evil. But I do not want it near me. (“Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will cling to the one and despise the other.”) I cling to the one and despise the other, because I love the bretheren. I see the damage that these dogs and their smug insufferable pride do and are doing to the faithful and my sympathies are with the faithful who are endlessly lashed by these accusative hurtful wicked tongues. You will not make me ashamed of that. They will not make me ashamed of that.

    I, too was an agnostic when I was a young man, but it was not the godliness of other men that brought me to Christ, but quite the contrary, a dearth thereof. One specific demonic outburst made the devil very real to me and that, together with a personal experience of God’s transcendant power (and therefore existence) independent of any other man, drew me to Christ.

    These atheists cannot blame me for their disbelief, no matter how sure they might be that I hate them, rather than their works: their wicked heresies.

    The fact that you, ITtRP, are still casting your pearls before these swine and giving that which is holy to these dogs shows your claim to faith in the Word of God to be somewhat superficial–that, and the misguided importance you place on your overweening need for their approval.

    What do you expect to gain from disobeying that sound advice? (If I am not mistaken, the thing you hope to gain is the worldly approval of some enemies of the cross, thus proving yourself “reasonable” (to their standards). And yes, I could be wrong . . . but it isn’t likely.)

    I can forgive the lowest of sinners, the thief, the prostitute, the drug addict–myself!–even the violent bully or the proud “respectable” person indifferent to his neighbor’s poverty who becomes humble enough to admit his sin. I will never forgive an atheist. Never in all eternity. Nor will I preach to him, nor will I offer him any hope. I despise him. Christ came to save sinners. He did not come to save atheists. (Or let them repent, and be converted, and believe in God, and then they, too, can be forgiven. But I will not seek after them, for as long as they will not acknowledge God, they cannot hear Him.)


  31. 236 New Testament verses about love.

    Some examples:

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?

    Matthew 5:43-47

    Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
    Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

    Matthew 22:35-40

    Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
    Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
    Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
    When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
    And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

    1 Corinthians 13

    Let all that you do be done with love.

    1 Corinthians 16:14

    but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—

    Ephesians 4:15

    What is the truth?
    Jesus is the truth.

    Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

    John 14:6

    What is the truth?
    1) We are already accursed due to our own sin (our own transgression of the law)

    For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

    Galatians 3:10

    2) Jesus Christ has redeemed us from the curse

    Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),

    Galatians 3:13

    3) But if you reject Jesus Christ, you reject redemption from the curse.

    If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come!

    1 Corinthians 16:22

    God does not want anyone to remain accursed. But you have free will to choose.

    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

    John 3:16-17

  32. John says:


    ” . . . WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM . . .” (John 3:16)

    ” . . . HE THAT BELIEVES NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY . . .” (John 3:18)

    “If any man see his brother sin A SIN WHICH IS NOT UNTO DEATH, he shall ask, and he shall give him life FOR THEM THAT SIN NOT UNTO DEATH. THERE IS A SIN UNTO DEATH: I DO NOT SAY THAT HE SHALL PRAY FOR IT. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death . . . Little children, keep yourself from idols.” (I John 5:16)


  33. John says:


    How is what I have written at length different from what Paul said in 1st Corinthians 16:22? Is not this, also, love? Did Paul not love us when he wrote those words?

    I do not want that atheist to be lost. I want him to be shaken to his roots so that he repents. But I am no longer going to have anything to do with him, because to me, he is deaf, dumb and unclean. I am more concerned with those who will see in him an example that inspires their fear and hesitation to be so bold in rejecting God or openly defying Him. I am making this point clear to everyone: if you do not believe in God, then I will not like you, I will not talk with you, I will not associate with you, I will despise the ground you walk on. Let the wise person ask himself, “Why does John feel so strongly about this?” It is enough. This, too, ITtRP, is love.


  34. John,

    The approval I seek is not from man but from my Heavenly Father.

    His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

    Matthew 25:21

    Jesus Christ is not only my Savior, He is my Lord.

    Jesus Christ is my example in everything.

    How did Jesus treat people that others considered “unclean”?
    Did he shun them and condemn them?
    No, he ministered to them and showed them true love and compassion. He told them the truth, but he spoke the truth in love.

    Jesus did not consider people to be unclean, but rather there were demonic spirits within them that were unclean.

    Our battle is not against “unclean” people. It is against “unclean” spirits. It is spritual warfare for the souls of people.

    For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

    Ephesians 6:12

  35. Ryan says:

    John – I don’t think you are welcome here any more unless you want to try to be respectful. I’m not sure which commandment that is – but I’m sure it’s in there somewhere.

    Mr Pill – This discussion illustrates one of the many reasons I do not belive the Bible is anything more than an old book. Would god allow the book that is to give us guidance for everything we do – be so easily misinterpreted. The quotes you have been providing, and the quotes that John have been providing are all real – yet they tell us to act in completely different ways. I don’t get it.

  36. John says:

    Please forgive the excesses of my zealotry. We are brothers, and I truly do not wish to give the adversary anything to grab hold of in dividing us. I said something above that was intended to be rhetorical, but it could come across otherwise, and I do not wish you to misunderstand my intended meaning. I certainly do understand your emphasis on the command that we “love one another” and how it is that this righteous concern motivates your reluctance to openly rebuke the atheist for his godlessness. In saying “until and unless you figure out whose side you’re on, you can go with him” I suggest a pig-headed intolerance and lack of Christian charity that is, I agree, out of line. For this I apologize. I truly do not wish to question the sincerity of your faith in Christ, and such a comment, which implies otherwise, was uncalled for. I might better have said “if you wish to have fellowship with such a one, that is your business, but I will not join you in that enterprise, and cannot approve of it” which would be closer to my actual thoughts and feelings on the subject. Again, please accept my apology for that.

    Having brought this up again, I wish also to clarify the reasons for my disapproval. Certainly, when I read the gospels, I see the loving spirit of Christ exhibited in everything He said; even in His most stern rebukes, and with one exception, he did not extinguish all hope. Being human, I recognize that my own style is nowhere close to so perfect, and also do admit that we are indeed called to be so. But there is a fine line here which, upon closer inspection, is not so easily found and adhered to. Christ did not “break off a bruised reed, nor extinguish a smoldering wick” as the Scripture says, but neither did He compromise with faithlessness or evil. It is instructive that of Judas He said, “Good were for that man, that he had never been born.” Do you, too, hear the door slamming shut in this statement?

    We read in John’s writings, more than elsewhere, of God who is love, who gave us a new commandment, that we love one another, and that it is impossible to love God while hating our neighbor. Again, I wish to insist, that I do not hate anyone, and like God, my wish is for every man that he be saved. I take no joy from the thought of the damnation of any individual.

    But neither can I take any joy from the foolish expectation that no one is going to be lost, for if that were true, then God had lied to us, and if God had lied to us about that, then He might also have lied to us about the certainty of our own eternal lives. You see where that goes? I must hope that God’s Word proves true in every way–no exceptions. Thus I must expect that some will be damned, as Jesus said they would be.

    Nor when I say to an atheist “Go to hell,” do I mean to command him, as though I had any power or authority to send him there. From the context of our free will I mean in effect “(Let it be that you) go (then, if you are thus determined to ignore the warnings and so choose) to hell (which is the certain consequence of your stated rejection of God’s existence). From the context of God’s election before the world began, I mean “(Let it be that you) go (then, if you are indeed as you say, an atheist, and thus chosen to be a vessel for the wrath of God) to hell (which is the certain consequence of God’s choice to withhold from you the gift of faith). My message is not so much addressed to the one being lost, for I cannot pity a wicked man nor care at all what he thinks, but rather to those who hear the awful truth about him, that they might fear to be like him. Or in the spirit of Paul’s words, “Let it indeed be so that those that do not love the Lord Jesus Christ be accursed, so that God’s Word be ever and always true, Amen.” Not “Go, I command you,” that is, but “Go, if you must.”

    Since it is from John’s writings that we learn that God is Love, and that we are to love one another as the fulfillment of all divine law, it is also instructive if we listen to what else John has to say about Christ’s love for us. For our duty to love does not make it imperative that we encourage every person equally without distinction. Indeed, discrimination between one man and another on the basis of their relationship with God such that it guides our interaction with them and others is absolutely moral, upright, and good. In a world of several billion different people we often face conflicting loyalties, conflicting goals, and conflicting obligations. When loving one man will put us in the position of being accused of hating another, what should we do? Love both of them such as we can, yes, but how is it when doing exactly that opens us up to an accusation of failing to love the man whose desires we must disappoint in the interest of loving both? Also to the point, is it unloving to hurt someone’s feelings by telling them that they have done something horribly, grievously wrong when that is the simple truth? More to the point, it is never love of another to do that which fails in our obligation to first of all, love God.

    As Jesus made clear, it is not love to take food from the children’s plates and feed it to the dogs, however pitiful, eager, and hungry the dogs may appear to be.

    “And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables” (John 2:15)

    Typical atheist: How unloving that was! How violent! (The zeal of thine house has eaten me up)

    “Jesus answered and said unto them ‘Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.'” (John 2:19)

    Typical atheist: How inconsiderate! He left them thinking that He intended to destroy the temple, when He had meant that IF THEY were to destroy it, He would raise it. He DIDN’T CARE what they thought! That’s not love.

    “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36)

    Typical atheist: The wrath of God abideth on him? Just for not believing? Isn’t that mean? What if the man is a “moral” atheist?

    “For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband” (John 4:18)

    Typical atheist: Isn’t this rather personal? How dare He tell her that the one she is with is not her husband. How could He know?

    You see my point, ITtRP? And I’m only to the fourth chapter. There will always be a ready rebuke in the mouth of the atheist for Jesus Christ and for our belief that Jesus Christ is the sinless Son of God. Indeed, the atheist’s unbelief is not just simply an absence of faith in something he has no way of knowing. His atheism is a self-exalted refusal to believe a divine moral standard that he has willfully placed beneath himself, and entails an accusation of wrongdoing on our part whether stated or unstated. His atheism is inseparable from this accusation because his standard of judgment is completely perverted by (a) his refusal to believe that a Supreme Being Creator, has or could have any authority to demand obedience to the Creator’s moral law and (b) his refusal to believe that the resurrection of the dead will insure an eternally just outcome.

    His outlook is very limited and temporary, and suits one purpose only, his own self-justification and self-exaltation. And to secure his own self-justification he must and is willing to condemn everyone else, including you and I and God Himself! How long should we be willing to listen to his accusatory drivel? (Not at all.) He has no sense of the long-term damage in the consequences of his actions, so his every “moral” judgment is hopelessly perverted and confused. How long should you continue to give him a platform from which to accuse the bretheren and stir up the hatred of the community against us? For while you are focusing on his potential as an “undecided” voice, the enemy is undermining everyone who is willing to consider his unchallenged drivel. This is why I put his nonsense to a sudden stop by making it clear that he has nothing to say to us. I am not willing to give him an inch or a second from which to assault the servants of God with his cruel self-righteous tongue, because there is nothing in his head but wicked nonsense (however “rational” it may sound to those who can delude themselves that they are “dispassionate” about the crucifixion of Christ).

    By “moral” he likely means that he doesn’t also murder each of his homosexual accomplices after he makes them worthy of hell, and, oh yes, he’s doing his best to be a vegetarian and to combat global warming by forswearing flatulence. He doesn’t even know that homosexual behavior is immoral because it is not in the image of God, so he sins without shame. Yes, he does, he certainly does, he very much exactly “flatters himselves in his own eyes, until his iniquity is found to be hateful.” And exactly how long did it take after he was challenged before the clues leaked out that his notion of “moral” justifies that hateful perversion, homosexuality? And we can confidently predict that his own hatefulness will soon enough manifest itself despite the well practiced bland tone of voice that says, “Hate? (Ho hum) Disinterested me?” as he toys with his various deadly spiritual knives.

    Not playing his game, not playing into his baited trap, I have not cooperated with his self-flattery, so he will now show me the real atheist (not any sort of “moral” one) lurking within as he grows increasingly shrill in demanding that I be silenced, rebuked, punished, insulted, harmed, killed. And what if he doesn’t get to that last item within a week? Given the wicked nonsense that he already does spew, will you doubt firmly that it is certainly in him with all the rest?

    “Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness.” “How can Christ and the devil agree?”

    That pretty well sums it up. If the atheist won’t shut up on his own, then, if we can, we pull the plug on his soapbox. Simple. And, yes, this is love, for–not the devil, but the church–that is, one another.


  37. John says:

    “But unto the wicked God says, What have you to do to declare my statutes, or that you should take my covenant in your mouth? Seeing you hate instruction, and cast my words behind you. When you saw a thief, then you consented with him, and have been partaker with adulterers. You give your mouth to evil, and your tongue frames deceit. You sit and speak against your brother; and you slander your own mother’s son. These things have you done, and I kept silence; you thought that I was altogether such a one as yourself: but I will reprove you, and set them in order before your eyes. Now consider this, you that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver. Whoso offers praise glorifies me: and to him that orders his conversation aright will I show the salvation of God. “

  38. John says:

    “Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? Who shall dwell in thy holy hill? He that walks uprightly, and works righteousness, and speaks the truth in his heart . . . In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honors them that fear the Lord.”


    “He answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she cries after us. But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Then came she and worshipped Him, saying, Lord, help me. But He answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s food and cast it to dogs.”

    “O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things?”

    “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”

    “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.”

    ITtRP, I must respectfully disagree with you about Jesus not seeing any person as unclean.


  39. Betty says:

    A true atheist would avoid this site like the plague. A self proclaimed atheist is not ready to shut the door and it may be God who led them here to take them a step further on the journey. Plant a good seed, it may turn out to be fertile soil after all. we do not have Jesus power of discernment to be able to just take a peek and determine that a person is evil or good.
    I too was agnostic for 30 years, and now that I am immersed in His word, I feel only regret for all of the time I shut myself out.
    Also, there is a huge difference between “religion” and the love of God. Religion can be akin to politics and elevate the unworthy.

  40. John says:


    Thank you, Betty for your thoughts.

    I disagree with your assertion that an avowed atheist would avoid this site like the plague. And I take great exception to your using the adjective “true” as a modifier for the noun “atheist” since this creates an oxymoron.

    I have found that wherever the Gospel of Jesus Christ is being discussed in public, that the enemies of the cross of Christ flock to it that they might do that one thing that apparently gives them the most pleasure, fault-finding, accusing, blaming Christians, spewing mockery and contempt, and just generally trying to stir up fome fireworks that they might go “Aha! Aha!”

    Not ready to shut the door? How many times it’s been that I have heard a man proudly exclaim that he was an atheist and then, flipping a finger at the sky, dare God to strike him dead as he spewed a mouthful of profane and vulgar invective! Not closing the door? Please.

    I have also repeatedly seen atheists use the tactic of pretending to be the pre-eminent embodiment of the sweet voice of reason (of course, they pride themselves on being “rational”) in order to demonstrate their self-vaunted superiority to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, only to come unglued and begin ranting and hurling insults when the inferiority of their position or the insincerity of their stance is revealed by shining a real light on it.

    If you look closely at the posts by these atheists, you will see that they are consistently laden with accusations. Accusations, and accusations, and accusations. Some of them are sugar-coated, and smeared all over with pleasantries, but they are accusations nevertheless. Others are blatant childishly contemptuous insults. But they are all accusations, and they are all tiresome.

    Responding to these accusations with flattering invitations to submit yet more such as “I see that what you are really saying shows some evidence of good intent, so I’ll grant that, blather blather,” only encourages them to go tell their partners in crime that they have “won” something, after which they return to see if they can get the Christian to budge yet another inch from his position that Christ is the only answer to death and rejection of Christ is a damnable evil.

    I don’t stand around mute when someone is insulting my Lord with accusations or spitting in His face. I shut off that cycle by calling the bluff of an atheist. I am happy to have done so. Let others take a warning in where they see that man go from here. (Allow me to suggest that it might be a path that goes from mischiefous foolishnes to raving maniacal madness. Though, this one is clever and well-trained. He’ll no doubt keep it very close to the vest.) If He comes to his senses and falls to his knees, so much the better. But I’m not going to wait up for it.

    Notice how quickly, though, I came under rebuke for refusing to discuss morality with an atheist–a person whose morality is necessarily perverted. Where was all this rebuke when a man was saying that he believes that God is a fiction, that Christ’s death on the cross is a meaningless myth, and that Christains are fools? For this is what he is saying when he boasts that he is an atheist.

    Consider, Jesus said that whatever had been said in secret would be shouted from the housetops. The Gospel was once shared in private rooms. A demon-infested person would not hear the advice that we not give what is holy to dogs. Now, in shouting that from the rooftop, the demon-infested person hears it, and takes offense that we are calling him a dog. What is to be done? Sail on, sister; sail on sailor. Let him rant. Let him foam at the mouth. I will not give what is holy to an atheist dog, nor throw my pearls before atheist swine. I will not address him, because I have nothing to say to him directly. He does not acknowledge that God exists. If so, then I do not acknowledge that he exists. Very simple. Very just and fair. Now if I have something to say, I will say it to all. You, evidently, also heard. And I am not going to forbid him from also hearing it! But I am not going to invite him to participate in a dialog, because I do not value his input. He is dead to me. And for this, there is now a list of names hurling rebukes in my direction–perhaps everyone on the site. So?

    “All who would live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted”

    As far as I am concerned, the Gospel is not being preached if the atheists are not in a rage over it. Or, before you tell it to me, go first and tell Jesus Christ not to ruffle their feathers. I serve Him, not opinion.

    Like you I grew tired of my old condition, since it was not worthy of God. Unlike you, perhaps, what I grew tired of was all the non-controversial watered-down drivel that passed in pretense for the Gospel.

    If it isn’t controversial, it isn’t the Gospel. Christ was not invited back the following week to continue his entertaining lecture before the Sanhedrin. Christ was crucified.

    What the self-professed atheist needs to see is a crowd dragging an apostle out of the city and beating him nearly half to death for simply preaching the Gospel; AND THEN SEEING HIM GET RIGHT BACK UP AND FEARLESSLY PREACHING IT AGAIN right before his eyes. This is what I fear it will take before his eyes have any chance of opening to the real light–if there is any chance.

    We’re talking about the resurrection of the dead, here, dear. There is no pretty way to show all of this.

    If I can give him that needed thing, then . . . God willing,

    I will.

    I don’t do wishy-washy.


  41. Ryan says:

    John, is it your assertion that I, as a non-believer, am a person that knows that God exists, and chooses to ignore that knowledge? That what it seems you are saying. I have not seen anything in my life that would lead me to believe in God. Is it my responsibility to seek God? If so, then which one should I look for? Should I look for Jesus? Should I look for Allah? What about Zeus?

    You think that I am arrogant for not believing in your God. Are you not arrogant for not believing in a God that someone else might believe in with that same confidence as you have in yours?

    These are honest questions that I would like to have answered by a Christian. I hope you try to answer them, instead of spewing hatred towards me.

    If sufficient evidence of the existence of God is shown to me, then I will believe. I don’t think I owe anyone more than that. If I should believe without proof, then there is no reason why I should not choose one of the other numerous religions.

  42. John says:

    Gosh oh the overwhelming hysteria elicited lately like rats you are nuts!

    Is Ryan really asking an honest question, or is he just baiting us in an evil and mocking game? This is an honest question that I, as a Christian, have an answer to.

  43. Ryan says:

    If the hatred you spew is inspired by the Bible, then I’m glad I’ve read it for the last time.

    I asked you a question – the unanswered question that caused me to lose my belief in God years ago. The fact that you cannot answer it says a lot to me. Nobody else has been able to answer it either.

  44. Betty says:

    Ryan, I would be honored to answer your question. All that you need to do to get first hand knowledge of God is talk to him , and heres the hard part….listen. You can simply ask “Jesus please make yourself known to me and show me our Father , Creator of Heaven & earth, God” I do believe that God has a sense of humor, and quite frankly I think he gets great joy when we finally learn to quit making everything harder than it has to be.

    ot. I say true atheist the same way i would say true feminist or any other category. The totally confirmed atheists I have known do not want to hear anything at all about God and don’t even want to discuss it, the door just gets slammed. Yes, I know true atheists, not so confirmed atheists and homsexuals. I do not shun people becausewhat I may consider shortcomings….heck I would have to cut off a lot of family. Jesus sat down for His last meal with the man He KNEW was about to betray Him…now I certainly do NOT have that kind of charachter, can certainly admire it.

  45. John says:


    You are naive.

    Ryan does not want anyone to answer any questions, he certainly doesn’t want answers so that he can contemplate them.

    Ryan hates you, and every Christian. He is baiting you, and anyone who will respond to him. He is just setting you up so that he can tell you once again that your faith is silly, that you are a fool, and that he is perfectly rational, thus, all he has said about you must be logically correct. He’s simply asking you to construct for him a podium from which he can, yet once again, exalt his own smug self-flattery at your expense.

    See? Now he’s blaming someone else for his lack of faith. It isn’t his fault he has no faith, says Ryan, it’s ours. I won’t play another round of “gotcha!” with him, so it’s his signal excuse to replay the “It’s your fault I’m a queer atheist!” tape.

    Ryan does not believe in God because faith in God requires a commitment to moral behavior that Ryan is unwilling to make. Ryan has no faith in God because Ryan hates everything that God stands for, self-control, honesty, purity, humility, the mortification of the flesh for the joy of the spirit. Ryan wants to pleasure himself, so he does not even want to think about a God who rebukes his sinful wantonness. Thus, the endless loop: “It’s your fault I’m queer.”

    You should not be throwing your pearls before such swine. You should not be giving what is holy to such dogs.

    The fact that you are, is testimony that you do not take your Savior’s word very seriously. You have your own system. You’ll do it your way. You want the world to applaud you for being so open-minded. Go complain to Jesus, then for being adamantly silent to Herod, who was “only” asking for one teensy-weensy little miracle.

    I am not playing in your arena, lady. I am not going to play in it. I am rebuking you for being foolish and irresponsible, and giving Christ the reputation of a wishy-washy simpering sissy. Stop it.

    I assure you that you will certainly get bitten feeding trolls like Ryan.


    P.S. Jesus did not just sit down to His last dinner with Judas. He sent Judas from the room because He had holy things to say that were not intended for one as profane as Judas. Read the whole story, not just the parts you like best.

  46. John says:

    As far as I am concerned, the Gospel is not being preached if the atheists are not in a rage over it. Or, before you tell it to me, go first and tell Jesus Christ not to ruffle their feathers. I serve Him, not opinion.

    Like you I grew tired of my old condition, since it was not worthy of God. Unlike you, perhaps, what I grew tired of was all the non-controversial watered-down drivel that passed in pretense for the Gospel.

    If it isn’t controversial, it isn’t the Gospel. Christ was not invited back the following week to continue his entertaining lecture before the Sanhedrin. Christ was crucified.

    What the self-professed atheist needs to see is a crowd dragging an apostle out of the city and beating him nearly half to death for simply preaching the Gospel; AND THEN SEEING HIM GET RIGHT BACK UP AND FEARLESSLY PREACHING IT AGAIN right before his eyes. This is what I fear it will take before his eyes have any chance of opening to the real light–if there is any chance.

    We’re talking about the resurrection of the dead, here, dear. There is no pretty way to show all of this.

    If I can give him that needed thing, then . . . God willing,

    I will.

    I don’t do wishy-washy.


  47. Ryan says:

    Hey John, if you don’t mind, I’m a big boy, and I can speak for myself. Feel free to tell us all how you feel, but don’t tell people how I feel.

    I don’t “blame” anyone for my lack of faith. I’m quite comfortable with it.

    How could I “hate everything that God stands for” if I don’t believe he exists? If he does exists, and the Bible is in fact his testament, then you might be surprised to know that I fully support about 95% of everything he stands for, at least in the New Testament. I don’t hate Christians. I don’t hate anyone at all.

    John, you are really on the defensive here lately. Maybe we should hug this one out…

  48. John says:

    Don’t touch me, creep.

    You are “seriously bat-shit crazy” (to quote the man’s own certainly less than loving words).

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