Parsing the Statement by Dr. Fukino about Barack Hussein Obama’s Official Birth Certificate

For Immediate Release: October 31, 2008 08-93 

STATEMENT BY DR. CHIYOME FUKINO  

What it DOES say:

1) There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate.

2) State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.

3) Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

4) No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai‘i.

What it does NOT say:

1) Obama was born in Hawaii.

2) The CertificatION of Live Birth (presented on Daily KOS, Fight the Smears, and Factcheck.org) is valid.

3) The CertificatION of Live Birth matches the data found on the original Birth CertificatE on record.

4) “We the People” do not have a tangible interest in the original birth certificate of a candidate for the office of President of the United States, in order to help determine if s/he is Constitutionally eligible to hold that office.

Why this matters:

The CertificatION of Live Birth that has been presented on Daily KOS, Fight the Smears, and Factcheck.org is a forgery.  I thought so the very first time I ever looked at it, but since that time, it has become clear that “Obama’s” Certification of Live Birth has a lot in common with two other “Certification of Live Birth” images displayed on Daily Kos: one a mostly blank template and the other “Haye I.B Ahphorgerie” (“Hey! I Be A Forgery!“)  Document experts have demonstrated numerous points that make it clear Obama’s “Certification of Live Birth” is a forgery.

Given that, the Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, were put in a very difficult situation.   They started receiving numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate.  If they were to release it, and reveal the dishonesty, there would have been a firestorm that likely would have ended the candidacy of the man known as Barack Hussein Obama II (also known as Muslim Indonesian Citizen Barry Soetoro).

The only thing that these two officials “verified” is that they had seen Obama’s original birth certificate and “verified” that it is “on record in accordance with state policies and procedures”.  That’s it.  Nothing more.

Why would Obama’s original birth certificate be on record in Hawaii if he was born elsewhere?  Because Hawaii law at that time allowed:

[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.
(b) Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91 that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fraudulent applications for birth certificates and to require any further information or proof of events necessary for completion of a birth certificate.

Compare Obama’s Forged Certifcation vs. A Real Certificate, and take special note of field 7c:

“County and State or Foreign Country

Yes, it is possible that Obama’s authentic, original birth certificate on record in Hawaii shows him as being born somewhere other than Hawaii.

Now, all this being said, it is only one of several issues.  Even if Obama were born in Hawaii, he himself admits that he was a British subject at birth.  He was registered as an Indonesian citizen when he attended school in Jakarta.  He travelled as an adult to Pakistan, and it is not clear if he used an American passport or an Indonesian passport to do so.  Any one of these issues could disqualify Barry Soetoro/Barack Hussein Obama II.

Yes, we want the truth, but

This is not ‘truther’ territory!

——————–

UPDATE:
See this post about parsing Dr. Fukino’s second News Release.

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75 Responses to Parsing the Statement by Dr. Fukino about Barack Hussein Obama’s Official Birth Certificate

  1. smrstrauss says:

    Re:
    [§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.
    (b) Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91 that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fraudulent applications for birth certificates and to require any further information or proof of events necessary for completion of a birth certificate.

    Yes Hawaii allows certifications of live birth to be issued to the children of residents even if the children were born outside of Hawaii.

    What you probably do not know is that the law does not allow the certification to lie. Thus you can receive a certification of live birth from Hawaii, even if you were born in Indonesia (as Obama’s sister was, and as her certification states “born in Indonesia.”

    But Obama’s Certification says on it “born in Hawaii.” This is not allowed under Hawaii law if there is a document in the files that says “born in Kenya” or whatever. Thus you must parse the statement of the Hawaii officials as “Yes there is a birth certificate in the files.” “Yes the birth certificate is from Hawaii” (it could not be from anywhere else and a certification saying that he was from Hawaii be issued). Therefore both the certification and the statement are saying the same thing HE WAS BORN IN HAWAII.

    The other issues–loss of citizenship, for example. You cannot lose your citizenship simply by traveling on a foreign passport, and you cannot lose your citizenship because of actions taken by your parents when you are a child. You cannnot lose your US citizenship even if another country thinks that you are an Indonesian citizen. Only by taking a voluntary action as an adult can anyone lose citizenship, and Obama did not do that.

  2. smrstrauss,

    The STATEMENT BY DR. CHIYOME FUKINO conveniently avoids any mention of the CertificatION.

    It is a very carefully CYA statement that allowed them to diffuse the situation without comitting perjury.

  3. smrstrauss says:

    Fixing Typos

    First, the statement was carefully crafted. Yes, of course. Should it have been stupidly crafted?

    The point, if you look at the statement again, is that she and the other official looked into the file and saw a birth certificate, an original birth certificate.

    If this birth certificate is from Hawaii, no problem. Only if the birth certificate is from somewhere else is the carefully crafted statement intentionally misleading. (Why they should intentionally mislead is a good question, since they are Republican appointees, and if they were discovered to have intentionally mislead, they wouldn’t get appointed again.)

    But how can a Kenyan (or a Canadian, or a New York) birth certificate be in the files if Obama has a certificate of live birth that says “Born in Hawaii.” As I said before, the law allows the issue of a Hawaiian certification to persons who were not born in Hawaii. But the law does not allow that certification to lie and say that they were born in Hawaii. Such certifications, as in the case of the sister, say “Hawaii birth certification, location of birth: Indonesia.”

    Ah, but the parents could have lied, you may assert. Here is how that would be possible: Say that they came back from Kenya, and right away went to the DOH and lied and said that their baby was born in Hawaii. Okay, but why would they do that? Did they believe then that Obama would be elected president in 2008?

    Re: Did not say: “The CertificatION of Live Birth (presented on Daily KOS, Fight the Smears, and Factcheck.org) is valid.”

    As you said, it is a carefully crafted statement. You know why. It is illegal to reveal anything about the contents of the file. (They may have violated this law with what they said anyway, but that was the reason that it was carefully crafted, and they haven’t been prosecuted, so probably they did not break the law.)

    In any case, the statement did not refer to the document seen on the Web. It referred only to the facts that the document stated, namely that Obama was born in Hawaii. The officials were shown images of the physical document by factCheck and Polifact, and the reply was that as far as they could see (since they could not handle the physical document), the copy was authentic.

    Do you really believe that Obama was born in Kenya?

    Suppose that you were Obama’s mother and had given birth to him in Kenya. I do not believe that she did. In order to travel to Africa you had to get a Yellow Fever shot in those days, and it was a difficult and expensive trip. But one way to see how unlikely it was that she gave birth in Kenya is simply to imagine that she had given birth in Kenya and to put yourself in her shoes.

    We know also from her high school friends that she was a popular girl and probably continued to have many friends throughout her life.

    But apparently she told no one about one of the most interesting experiences of her life, which was that she went to Kenya when she was only 18 and gave birth in a hospital in Kenya. This would be a very unusual thing for an American woman to not do (to discuss an unusual hospital stay), and it (the hospital in Kenya and the trip to Kenya) would have been a good topic of discussion throughout her life. It would be hard to resist talking about giving birth in Kenya, and for that matter, it would be difficult to not discuss a trip to Kenya at all in 1961.

    Yet no friends of Obama’s late mother have come forward saying “I remember she told me about that trip, about the hospital, about how hot it was” or anything about such a trip. Yet, during the election, that fact would have been of interest, and surely one of them would have written a letter to an editor or called a newspaper to mention the fact that Obama’s mother had said she gave birth in Kenya. But no one did.

    It is difficult to imagine that Obama’s mother never mentioned the trip to Kenya or the birth in Kenya to her friends.

    For that matter, she did not mention it to her son. For surely if he had known that he was born in Kenya, he would have let that fact slip sometime when he was attending school in Hawaii, and if he did, one or more of his friends would recall that he did. But none of his friends have mentioned that “he told me he was born in Kenya.” At least none of them have called a news conference or sent a letter to the editor.

    So, we have at least one logical reason why it was unlikely that Obama’s mother gave birth in Kenya: She would have had to keep it secret for the rest of her life, and why would she do that? Did she think that her child would be elected president in 2008? Hardly.

    Then there is the absence of photograhs of Obama in Kenya or Obama’s mother with her in-laws.

    And, as for the statement of the Grandmother. Here is what Slate says about it:
    “None of that stopped Berg from stoking the conspiracy theorists. On Oct. 16, an Anabaptist minister named Ron McRae called Sarah Hussein Obama, the president-elect’s 86-year-old paternal step-grandmother, at her home in Kenya. Two translators were on the line when McRae asked if the elder Obama was “present” when the president-elect was born. One of the translators says “yes.” McRae contacted Berg and gave him a partial transcript of the call with a signed affidavit. He opted not to include the rest of the call, in which he asks the question more directly—”Was he born in Mombassa?”—and the translators, finally understanding him, tell him repeatedly that the president-elect was born in Hawaii.”

  4. Why is this even a topic of debate?

    Why spend close to a Million Dollars on legal fees instead of $15 to release a certified copy of the original vault birth certificate?

    Why hasn’t Obama been good for his word and kept his promise to be “open, transparent, and honest“?

  5. smrstrauss says:

    Re: Why is this even a topic of debate?

    Why spend close to a Million Dollars on legal fees instead of $15 to release a certified copy of the original vault birth certificate?

    Why hasn’t Obama been good for his word and kept his promise to be “open, transparent, and honest“?

    First, the figures on how much Obama spent are not likely to be accurate. Who told you. In fact, Obama is just one of the defendants in the cases, the others being the state governments and the Federal Election Commission, all of whom are fighting against the plaintiffs. And the cases in virtually all cases are not just about releasing a birth document. In one case, the allegation is that Obama cannot be president due to loss of citizenship, or due to dual nationality. Naturally Obama would defend these points. But you are giving the impression that he is only defending against releasing his original vault birth document.

    Now, as to his original vault birth document. Take a breath here. A lot of your assumptions are going to fly out the window.

    The reason is that the Department of Health of the State of Hawaii does not release the original vault birth document any more. You will find some of them on the Web, but those were the originals that were issued to the parents of the people involved at the time of their birth.

    Hawaii does not issue these originals any more. Nor does it make copies of the originals. It issues ONLY the certification of live birth, which costs $10, and which Obama applied for, received and posted on line.

    How do I know that the Hawaii Department of Health issues only the certification of live birth? I asked them.

    Here is their reply to my e-mail:
    Quotes

    It is possible that we have records with more information but we issue only certified computer-generated certificates with certain necessary information to confirm a birth. We are the only agency that issues certified birth records for Hawaii
    Aloha,
    (Name removed)
    End Quote

    So all Obama can get (unless he has saved a copy of the original, and maybe he has but can’t find it), is the certification of live birth.

    (Even the DHHL, which has on its web site that it needs to have an original birth certificate, now says it will accept a certification of live birth. How do I know? I asked them.)

    But don’t worry, the certification of live birth is a perfectly legal document, accepted by the State Department for granting passports.

    This guy puts it better than I can:
    A posting from Andrew Walden, publisher of the Hawaii Free Press, a right-wing blog based in Hawaii.

    http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/main/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/92/Barack-Obama-Born-in-Hawaii.aspx

    Barack Obama: Born in Hawai`i
    by Andrew Walden

    It is time to focus on REAL issues, not imaginary ones.

    A fairly impressive internet industry has sprung up claiming that Obama was born in either Kenya or Indonesia. This is nonsense, which distracts from the broadly unexplored story of Obama’s upbringing. This kind of nonsense has emerged because the McCain campaign chose not to raise the many questions about Barack Obama’s numerous hard-left alliances. Barack Obama was born in Hawai`i, August 4, 1961 at Kapiolani Medical Center in Honolulu.

    Obama’s birth certificate posted online is exactly the same birth certificate everybody in Hawai`i gets from the State Department of Health. It is not forged. There is nothing unusual about the design or the texture. In addition to the birth certificate, the August 13, 1961 Honolulu Advertiser also carries an announcement of Obama’s birth. The Honolulu Star-Bulletin also carries the same announcement. Both papers require submission of a copy of the birth certificate to print a birth announcement.

    End Quote

  6. liberty4usa says:

    On one side we have people defending fraud.
    On another side we have people caring about the truth.
    The side defending fraud is now considered mainstream normal thinking.
    The side wanting the truth are considered the kooks!

    The long term effects of illicits indoctrination are now becoming apparent!
    http://thenma.org/blogs//index.php/libertyforusa/2008/12/14/the-death-of-respect

  7. Ryan says:

    liberty4usa – what fraud are you talking about? Or is that a word you use for stuff you don’t like.

  8. Ryan says:

    Give up pill. You lost. He’s fulfilled all of the requirements to serve as president, and the people chose him to be the leader. You need to move on.

    I’m sure you disagree with his policies. Why don’t you discuss that, instead of this crazy crap you and others keep bringing up. Even the most conservative of pundits and bloggers think you are insane. I disagree with Obama on lots of stuff – and those are the discussions that move the country forward.

  9. Give up what, Ryan?

    Give up supporting and defending the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic?

    I will never give up on our Constitution. It is the foundation that protects our God-given unalienable rights, and if we don’t support and defend it, we will lose every freedom we enjoy in this country.

    Article II Section 1 clearly states:

    No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President

    Obama was not a Citizen of the United States at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution.

    Obama is not a natural born Citizen because his father was a British subject. Yes, that matters. A “natural born citizen” is born in the country, of parents who are citizens.

    The 20th Amendment explicitly states what is to happen when “the President elect shall have failed to qualify“.

    Every member of Congress has sworn an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

    This is going to get ugly, and Obama has only himself to blame.

  10. Loren says:

    Natural Born Citizen Chart

    Here’s what I haven’t figured out about the repeated citation of Perkins v. Elg: the Court declared Ms. Elg to be a natural-born citizen.

    “The court below, properly recognizing the existence of an actual controversy with the defendants [307 U.S. 325, 350] (Aetna Life Ins. Co. v. Haworth, 300 U.S. 227 , 57 S.Ct. 461, 108 A.L.R. 1000), declared Miss Elg ‘to be a natural born citizen of the United States’ (99 F.2d 414) and we think that the decree should include the Secretary of State as well as the other defendants.”

    A lower court first declared Ms. Elg to be a “natural-born citizen of the United States,” despite neither of her parents being US citizens, and the Supreme Court upheld that decision. They even quoted that part of the lower court’s decision. And their affirmation that Ms. Elg is a natural born citizen is the only place the term even appears in the decision.

    So I’m not sure how folks are looking at Perkins v. Elg and declaring that the Court’s decision was ‘Ms. Elg is not a natural born citizen’ when in fact they declared exactly the opposite.

  11. smrstrauss says:

    Re: Obama is not a natural born Citizen because his father was a British subject. Yes, that matters. A “natural born citizen” is born in the country, of parents who are citizens.

    First, I have already proved that Obama was born in Hawaii. All the claims that he was born in Kenya were manufactured by WMD and Corsi and the documents that show he was born in Hawaii were not forged and have been confirmed by the Hawaii officials.

    Second, the theory that Obama is not “natural born” despite being born in Hawaii is simply a theory. The Supreme Court has refused to rule on it twice. That being the case, we have to honor our traditional meaning of the term “natural born” which simply means “born in the USA.”

    That means, until the Supreme Court rules to the contrary (and the odds of that are virtually nothing at this moment) that Obama has all the legal qualifications to be president.

  12. Loren,

    I really appreciate when people dissent in an intelligent, respectful way. Thank you for your comment.

    I didn’t personally cite Perkins v. Elg, but I realize that I did personally link to a post that does. Therefore, it is fair of you to expect an answer from me re: Perkins v. Elg.

    I am not a lawyer, and I honestly don’t know if or how the SCOTUS would rule on this. I personally believe that the strongest reasoning is based on an “originalist” understanding of what the founders meant and intended with the inclusion of the “natural born citizen” requirement. Based on The Law of Nations, or Principles of The Law of Nature applied to the conduct and affairs of Nations and Sovereigns:

    natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.

    But it’s not a done deal just yet. I believe Obama is not a natural born citizen, due to the undisputed fact that both he and his father were British subjects at the time of his birth.

    Every member of Congress has sworn an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

    Every member of Congress should be requiring Obama to prove that he qualifies as a “natural born citizen”. Of course, most won’t. But it only takes one member in each house to challenge the vote.

    And if Congress does certify the vote, then that may be the point at which the Supreme Court steps in. The SCOTUS has denied stays of elections, but they have not denied certiorari in ANY of the three cases that are now PENDING at the court.

    The 20th Amendment appears to put the burden on Obama and Biden to prove that they qualify to hold the office of POTUS:

    if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.

  13. Ryan says:

    You have misinterpreted the Constitution you hold so dear.

    It doesn’t make a difference whether his father was a British subject. That only comes into effect if Obama himself was born outside of the US. He was born in the US – that means he can be president – your president – whether you like it or not. If you are born in the United States, you are an AMERICAN, and a natural born citizen. It really is as plain as that.

    And why do you think that the rights in the constitution are “God given”? If there was a god, do you think he would be interested in US citizenship rights?

  14. Being born in the USA makes you a citizen of the USA, even a “native” citizen, but not necessarily a “natural born citizen”.

    See the above link to “natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”

    Why do I think that the rights in the constitution are “God given”?

    Our country was not founded when the Constitution was ratified.

    Our country was founded when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

    The purpose of our Constitution is to provide just enough government to “establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity”, while at the same time limiting and balancing the power of the government in order to protect the unalienable Rights that have been endowed by our Creator (God).

  15. smrstrauss,

    “the documents that show he was born in Hawaii were not forged and have been confirmed by the Hawaii officials.”

    Wrong. The Hawaii officials have not “confirmed” the forged CertificatION of Live Birth. The statement shown in this post only “confirms” that the officials have seen Obama’s original Birth CertificatE and “verified” that it is “on record in accordance with state policies and procedures”. That’s it. Nothing more.

    So why won’t Obama release the Birth CertificatE they have on record?

    “The Supreme Court has refused to rule on it twice.”

    Wrong. The Supreme Court has denied applications to stay elections, but they have not denied certiorari. Three cases are currently in PENDING status (Berg, Donofrio, Wrotnowski).

    That being the case, we have to honor our traditional meaning of the term “natural born” which simply means “born in the USA of parents who are citizens.”

    The Supreme Court may be waiting for Congress to enforce the 20th Amendment, and if Legislative branch does not, then the Judicial branch may have to.

  16. A good source of summarized info (and links to other sources) on both the natural born citizen issue and lawsuits around the USA:

    http://americamustknow.com/default.aspx

  17. smrstrauss says:

    Re: “have seen Obama’s original Birth CertificatE and “verified” that it is “on record in accordance with state policies and procedures”. That’s it. Nothing more.”

    Let’s try to remember logic.

    1) The officials saw the original birth certificate in the file.

    2) Hawaii law does NOT allow the Department of Health to lie in issuing a certification of live birth. They can issue a birth certificate even to people who were not born in Hawaii, but those documents must list the actual place of birth.

    3) Obama’s certification of live birth says on it “born in Hawaii.”

    4) Therefore the original birth certificate cannot say “born in Kenya” (or born anywhere else than in Hawaii) or the certification would be lying, and the statement by the officials that they saw a birth certificate when it was not a Hawaii birth certificate would be repeating the lie.

    5) Therefore the birth certificate MUST be a Hawaii birth certificate.

  18. smrstrauss says:

    Re: So why won’t Obama release the Birth CertificatE they have on record?

    Because the Hawaii Department of Health issues only the Certification of Live Birth these days. I have been in touch with them by e-mail.

  19. Ryan says:

    Sorry Pill, you are just wrong about this. A natural born citizen of the United States is one that is born on US soil OR born to US citizens abroad. A naturalized citizen is one that was once a citizen of another country, but has since acquired US citizenship. That’s it. That has been upheld by the courts in the past, and will be upheld if challenged again.

    Why even bother arguing with you. Even if you agreed with me on that, you would argue that he wasn’t born in Hawaii.

    Why do you keep saying that the certification of live birth is forged? You have no grounds whatsoever to say that. Even the people who issued it has verified its authenticity! How more authentic can something get?

    So tell me – what do you think Obama’s birth certificate says? I bet you think it has a Muslim stamp on it.

  20. smrstrauss says:

    Re: “Three cases are currently in PENDING status (Berg, Donofrio, Wrotnowski).’

    It is hard to answer this because there will always be new cases as long as people file them. But I have checked with the Supreme Court’s on line docket and find that with regard to Wrotnowski:

    Nov 25 2008 Application (08A469) for stay and/or injunction, submitted to Justice Ginsburg.
    Nov 26 2008 Application (08A469) denied by Justice Ginsburg.
    Nov 29 2008 Application (08A469) refiled and submitted to Justice Scalia.
    Dec 8 2008 DISTRIBUTED for Conference of December 12, 2008.
    Dec 8 2008 Application (08A469) referred to the Court by Justice Scalia.
    Dec 9 2008 Supplemental brief of applicant Cort Wrotnowski filed. (Distributed)
    Dec 15 2008 Application (08A469) denied by the Court.

    That is the only listing for Wrotnowski, and as you can see the last listing was that the application was denied on Dec. 15 (yesterday).

    There is only one listing for Donofrio, and it was denied on Dec. 8.

    The Berg case is apparently still in the system, but that is not an issue over whether Obama is a natural born citizen. Nor is it over the place of birth of Obama. The only issue is whether Berg has standing to sue.

    Since both cases revolving around the innovative approach to “natural born citizen” have been dismissed, we must use our common sense and continue to rely on the good, traditional meaning of “natural born,” which has always meant “born in the USA.”

    Since it can be shown logically that Obama was born in the USA, and he is over 35, he is eligible to be President.

  21. smrstrauss and ryan,

    Your logic is faulty because you start with an incorrect assumption: you assume that the CertificatION of Live Birth that has been posted on Daily Kos and FightTheSmears is authentic.

    2) Hawaii law does NOT allow the Department of Health to lie in issuing a certification of live birth. They can issue a birth certificate even to people who were not born in Hawaii, but those documents must list the actual place of birth.

    That is true.

    3) Obama’s certification of live birth says on it “born in Hawaii.”

    Technically False. It does not say “born in Hawaii”.

    It does say:
    CITY, TOWN OR LOCATION OF BIRTH
    HONOLULU

    ISLAND OF BIRTH
    OAHU

    COUNTY OF BIRTH
    HONOLULU

    4) Therefore the original birth certificate cannot say “born in Kenya” (or born anywhere else than in Hawaii) or the certification would be lying, and the statement by the officials that they saw a birth certificate when it was not a Hawaii birth certificate would be repeating the lie.

    Forensic document experts have called the CertificatION of Live Birth a forgery.

    The Hawaiian officials have NEVER claimed that the CertificatION of Live Birth is authentic.

    The forgery claims Obama was born in Honolulu.

    The authentic Birth CertificatE may, or may not, show that Obama was born in Honolulu.

    5) Therefore the birth certificate MUST be a Hawaii birth certificate.

    Wrong conclusion, based upon faulty initial assumption.

    Re: So why won’t Obama release the Birth CertificatE they have on record?

    Because the Hawaii Department of Health issues only the Certification of Live Birth these days. I have been in touch with them by e-mail.

    How can that be true when certain agencies in Hawaii (like the Homesteading agency if I remember correctly) will not accept a CertificatION of Live Birth and instead require that a CertificatE of Live Birth be presented?

    Why do you keep saying that the certification of live birth is forged? You have no grounds whatsoever to say that.

    Wrong. Watch the video in the upper right-hand corner of
    http://www.obamaforgery.com

    Barack’s COLB was posted on Daily Kos within minutes of the COLB of “Haye I.B Ahphorgerie “.

    Even the people who issued it has verified its authenticity!

    Wrong. Please provide a link to back up your statement.

    The Hawaiian officials have NEVER claimed that the CertificatION of Live Birth is authentic.

    The Hawaiian officials claimed that they had seen the CertificatE of Live Birth, and it is on file.

    That’s it! You interpret that as them saying they had examined the CertificatION of Live Birth and “verified its authenticity”. You are wrongly reading into their statement words that they never said. All because you want to believe that they “verified the authenticity” of what was posted on Daily Kos within minutes of the CertificatION of Live Birth of “Haye I.B Ahphorgerie “.

    Re: “Three cases are currently in PENDING status (Berg, Donofrio, Wrotnowski).’

    It is hard to answer this because there will always be new cases as long as people file them. But I have checked with the Supreme Court’s on line docket and find that with regard to Wrotnowski:

    Nov 25 2008 Application (08A469) for stay and/or injunction, submitted to Justice Ginsburg.
    Nov 26 2008 Application (08A469) denied by Justice Ginsburg.
    Nov 29 2008 Application (08A469) refiled and submitted to Justice Scalia.
    Dec 8 2008 DISTRIBUTED for Conference of December 12, 2008.
    Dec 8 2008 Application (08A469) referred to the Court by Justice Scalia.
    Dec 9 2008 Supplemental brief of applicant Cort Wrotnowski filed. (Distributed)
    Dec 15 2008 Application (08A469) denied by the Court.

    That is the only listing for Wrotnowski, and as you can see the last listing was that the application was denied on Dec. 15 (yesterday).

    There is only one listing for Donofrio, and it was denied on Dec. 8.

    The Berg case is apparently still in the system, but that is not an issue over whether Obama is a natural born citizen. Nor is it over the place of birth of Obama. The only issue is whether Berg has standing to sue.

    Since both cases revolving around the innovative approach to “natural born citizen” have been dismissed,

    Wrong. The court has not denied certiorari in these cases, and when the court denied applications to stay elections, the court listed these denials as “ORDERS IN PENDING CASES”:
    Donofrio on MONDAY, DECEMBER 8, 2008
    Wrotnowski on MONDAY, DECEMBER 15, 2008

    Note how on December 15th, the court orders include references to both

    CERTIORARI — SUMMARY DISPOSITION

    and

    CERTIORARI DENIED

    in other cases. There has yet to be any mention of certiorari either being granted or denied in the three PENDING cases currently before court (Berg, Donofrio, and Wrotnowski). I believe the Judicial branch is waiting on the Legislative Branch to uphold their sworn oath to

    support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.

    Keep in mind that the 20th Amendment makes it clear that the President elect must “qualify”:

    if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.

    If the Congress fails to uphold their sworn oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, then I believe the Supreme Court will intercede at that time.

    we must use our common sense and continue to rely on the good, traditional meaning of “natural born,” which has always meant “born in the USA.”

    Since it can be shown logically that Obama was born in the USA, and he is over 35, he is eligible to be President.

    You are incorrect about the traditional meaning of “natural born”. The undisputed fact that the candidate known as Barack Hussein Obama II was born as a subject of a foreign land. That alone is why he can never be Commander in Chief of our Armed Forces.

    While birthplace is not even relevant to the above disqualification, you have nothting but a forgery to “prove” he was born in Hawaii.

    I dare you to get the Hawaiian officials to make a public statement regarding the authenticity of the CertificatION of Live Birth that has been posted on Daily Kos and FightTheSmears.

    I double-dog dare you.

  22. Pingback: Haye I.B Ahphorgerie « I Took The Red Pill (and escaped the Matrix)

  23. Ryan says:

    You are truly insane.

    I said the document states he was born in Hawaii, and you take the time to point out that I am technically wrong because it merely states that the place of birth was Honolulu. Is that is a state other than Hawaii? Don’t be an idiot if you want to be taken seriously.

    On October 31, 2008, Dr Chiyome Fukino, Department of Health:

    “Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawaii, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.”

    ORIGINAL BIRTH CERTIFICATE

    Did you read that part? BIRTH CERTIFICATE! Not COLB. BIRTH CERTIFICATE. They have it on file, and that means he was born in Hawaii. On US soil. According to the Constitution, a person born on US soil, over the age of 35 can be president.

    Can’t wait to see your argument about this one…

  24. Ryan,

    My “argument about this one” is the very post to which you are commenting!

    They “CertificatION of Live Birth” and the “original birth certificate” are two different documents.

    Dr. Chiyome Fukino never said that the CertificatION of Live Birth is authentic.

    Dr. Chiyome Fukino said that she has “seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record…”

    What she didn’t say is more telling than what she did say.

    I dare you to get Dr. Chiyome Fukino to make a public statement regarding the authenticity of the CertificatION of Live Birth that has been posted on Daily Kos and FightTheSmears.

    Again, I double-dog dare you.

    The person who is “truly insane” is the person who believes that Obama’s COLB is any less of a forgery than the Certification of Live Birth for “Haye I.B Ahphorgerie“.

    What you believe is laughable, really.

  25. smrstrauss says:

    Re: “How can that be true when certain agencies in Hawaii (like the Homesteading agency if I remember correctly) will not accept a CertificatION of Live Birth and instead require that a CertificatE of Live Birth be presented?”

    I thought you would ask about this. I asked them about it after pointing out that the Department of Health only issues the certification of live birth these days. They noted that some people have the original certificATE, which their parents received when they were born. As for the others, those who do not have an original birth document, they say that they will now accept the COLB.

    I received two e-mails from DHHL:

    Here is the first E-mail:

    Aloha Paul,

    Thank you for your e-mail. I apologize if the information on our website is not clear. The Certificate of Live Birth is usually the original birth certificate that most people have. We accept both the Certificate of Live Birth and the computer-generated Certification of Live Birth from the Department of Health. The difference between the two is that the original birth certificate (Certificate of Live Birth) has more information, i.e. ethnicity, etc.

    Sincerely,
    (Name removed)

    Notice that they say that they will accept the COLB. As to most people having the original document, when in many cases it is lost, who knows? Perhaps among ethnic Hawaiians the document is kept very safely.

    Here is the second e-mail:

    Thank you for your response. Yes, I see what you are saying. You don’t need the original Certificate of Birth to apply. It’s okay to use your Certification of Live Birth. The best thing to do would be to contact our Applications Office, request an application and set up an appointment to go over everything. Our staff will work with you, tell you what documents you need and help you through the application process. The best person to contact is our Applications Officer, (name removed).

    Sincerely
    (name removed)

  26. smrstrauss,

    Nice. The information you provide is totally unverifiable.

    No names, no phone numbers, no URLs.

    Yet this info claims that the web site is wrong and this email is right.

    Looks more like chain letter material to me.

    What purpose do you have in removing the names of these supposed authorities?

    Let’s get a public statement from Dr. Fukino regarding the authenticity of two COLBs:
    Barack’s versus “Haye I.B Ahphorgerie

  27. smrstrauss says:

    Re: “You assume that the CertificatION of Live Birth that has been posted on Daily Kos and FightTheSmears is authentic.”

    I know that it is an article of faith among the fringe anti-obama crowd that the document is forged. But, who are these people who claim that they can tell that the COLB is forged merely by seeing it on line? Are they people who were quoted by reliable newspapers or news agencies? Or, were they just quoted by WND?

    Re: “The Hawaiian officials have NEVER claimed that the CertificatION of Live Birth is authentic.” This is also true. What they told FactCheck and Polifact after both organizations sent them e-mailed images of the physical document they were shown, was that they couldn’t tell for sure unless they saw the physical document. But they said that the image that the were shown looked a lot like the COLBs issued at about the time they sent one to Obama, and they confirmed that they sent one to Obama.

    Now, notice that the officials are being more careful than the “forensic document experts” quoted by WND. They say that the document looks authentic, but they can’t tell for sure since they cannot hold it. The forensic “experts” claim that it is false even without seeing the original document.

    Now, it seems to me, that if the “forensic document experts” were really convinced that the COLB was forged, they would not be content to be quoted only by WND. They would go to the AP and UPI and maybe the New York Times, the Daily News of New York (a solidly anti-Obama newspaper), the Wall Street Journal (owned by Murdoch) and a few others, and they would say “we are convinced that the COLB is a forgery. Why not ask the Obama campaign to see a physical copy, and we will look at it, and you can call in other experts, and send a copy to the officials in Hawaii, and you will have a great story if the document is forged.”

    This did not happen, so, like other things that WND has alleged, it is suspect. As far as we can tell, it is the words of people who hate Obama and who claim to be “forensic document experts.”

    Still, my case does not rest on the document not being forged. I have proved that the document in the file, the one that the officials looked at when they said that they saw a birth certificate, is a Hawaii birth certificate. As I have shown, the document in the file CANNOT be from Kenya (or anywhere else than Hawaii) if the COLB says “born in Hawaii.”

    Re: “Wrong conclusion, based upon faulty initial assumption.”

    I believe that you are saying this on the assumption that I rely on the COLB we see as not being forged. This is not what I rely on. I rely on the fact, which you have agreed with, that Hawaii cannot issue a COLB that says “born in Hawaii” (As you note, it really says “born in Honolulu,” but I’m trying to be brief.) IF the document in the files says that he was born in Kenya or somewhere else.

    Here is what would have to happen. The officials look into the file. They see a Kenya birth certificate (or one from California. It does not matter). They know that Obama has posted a COLB that says “born in Honolulu, etc.) and yet (according to this scenario) the document they see in the file says “born in Kenya.”

    The natural reaction would be “my God, we issued a false COLB,” or “my God, it is forged.”

    In either case, if they did not speak out and say “we have looked at the file and there is information in it that shows that he was NOT born in Hawaii,” they would be committing a fraud.

    Now, it seems to me that even Democrats who love Obama, when shown a situation in which there is a flagrant fraud that they spotted will speak out about it. If indeed they saw something that says “born in Kenya” that would be flagrant. Yet these are Republicans, there are two of them, and their statement says nothing about a non-Hawaiian birth certificate being in the files. As I have said, for them NOT to cry out about this (if it were the case) would mean that they were part of the conspiracy and had committed a fraud, for which they could go to jail, or at the very least lose their jobs.

    Since none of this happened, we must assume that the document in the file is a Hawaii birth certificate.

    Getting back to the COLB that was posted. You say:

    You interpret that as them saying they had examined the CertificatION of Live Birth and “verified its authenticity”.

    Actually they did in a sense authenticate the posted document. As I said, when Polifact and FactCheck called them and sent them images of the physical document that the two organizations had, the officials said that the document looked like the things they sent out and that they sent some COLBs to Obama at about the time that he said he received them. But, as I also said, they did not authenticate the physical document, since they did not see it but only the image.

    Still, the important point is that they authenticated the facts shown on the COLB that was posted. They said that they saw a birth certificate in the file and did not yell out “My God, he was born in Kenya.”

    Re: CERTIORARI. I’m sorry, I simply did not see this. It is possible that these cases are still pending. But don’t get your hopes up.

  28. smrstrauss says:

    Re” Nice. The information you provide is totally unverifiable.

    No names, no phone numbers, no URLs.”

    Here is how to contact the DHHL via e-mail. Just go to that location and it provides a form to send an email to DHHL.

    I feel silly about cutting the name off, but I do not want to invade the privacy of the person who replied to me. You can send your own e-mail to the department and when you get a reply you can quote the whole thing including the name or not, as you chose.

    http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/contact-info

  29. Still, my case does not rest on the document not being forged. I have proved that the document in the file, the one that the officials looked at when they said that they saw a birth certificate, is a Hawaii birth certificate. As I have shown, the document in the file CANNOT be from Kenya (or anywhere else than Hawaii) if the COLB says “born in Hawaii.”

    Your case rests on

    the document in the file CANNOT be from Kenya (or anywhere else than Hawaii) if the COLB says “born in Hawaii.”

    Therefore, your case most certainly rests on the authenticity of the COLB.

    The odds of Obama being born at the exact same minute as “Haye I.B Ahphorgerie“ are 1 in 1440.

    Both Obama’s COLB and “Haye I.B Ahphorgerie“ share anomalies.

    The two forgeries were posted on Daily Kos within minutes of each other. Get a clue.

    Obama’s COLB is a forgery, but you can’t understand how the Hawaii officials would not broadcast that.

    Just because you can’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s impossible.

    What Obama supporter would want to be solely responsible for ending Obama’s campaign?

    They didn’t want to “out” Obama, but they also didn’t want to be guilty of perjury or fraud, so they chose their words very carefully. You claim

    Still, the important point is that they authenticated the facts shown on the COLB that was posted.

    That is patently false. They did not authenticate anything about the COLB, and I challenge you to get them officially on record speaking about the authenticity of the COLB.

    Good luck.

  30. Ryan says:

    Are you being serious about the “Haye I.B Ahphorgerie” document? Don’t you know that it was generated as a demonstration that forging such a document is possible? The last name is “Ahphorgerie” which sounds a lot like “A Forgery”. You totally missed that didn’t you?

    You are correct about it being easy to forge these images. I could easily do it myself. In fact, the COLB from Obama may have been an electronic file only – meaning it doesn’t even represent a piece of paper. We are in a world where a document may not ever exist in paper form unless it is printed. The verification of it’s authenticity does not come from examining the document, but from the fact that it has been released to the public, and has not been challenged by the body that issued it.

    Do you really think that all the Republican officials in Hawaii that have the right to verify the Birth Certificate are liars, and are willing to risk jail time to defend the candidate of another party?

    The people who believe Obama was born in Kenya are becoming a smaller and smaller group, populated by only the most wacko conspiracy theorists. You will soon be very lonely in that group.

  31. smrstrauss says:

    Re: “You are incorrect about the traditional meaning of “natural born”. The undisputed fact that the candidate known as Barack Hussein Obama II was born as a subject of a foreign land. ”

    You overstate your case. The undisputed fact is that he was born with dual nationality. His father was from Kenya; his mother was from the USA. Obama does not merely admit this; he proclaims it. But does dual nationality bar him from being president? Obama doesn’t think so, and neither apparently does John McCain or George Bush.

    The theory in the cases is that because Obama’s FATHER was from Kenya, Obama was under the “jurisdiction” of a foreign country. But that is not necessarily the meaning of “jurisdiction” which in naturalization law until now has referred to members of Indian tribes and the children of foreign diplomats.

    Moreover, there is a BIG stretch here. The stretch is to assume that the meaning of “natural born” with regard to a president is different from the meaning of “natural born” with regard to an ordinary citizen. An ordinary citizen can be born with dual nationality because one of his parents is from a foreign country, but if she or he has been born in the USA they are US citizens regardless of the duality. But according to the theory presidents are subject to a higher law.

    Well, that is for the Supreme Court to decide, and as you say, they have not denied Cert. Maybe they will ultimately hold a hearing, but if they do not do it before Jan. 20, then the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court will swear Obama in, and I suspect that if there are four justices that have questions about Obama’s “natural born” quality, they would want to act before then.

    I would have thought that if four of them were serious about issuing Cert, they would have acted before the Electoral College voted, but they didn’t.

    Re: “The undisputed fact that the candidate known as Barack Hussein Obama II was born as a subject of a foreign land. ”

    You state this as if it were an article of faith. “Credo. I believe.”

    Yet, if the Supreme Court never takes the case, the theory that he was born as a subject of a foreign land and that this affects his ability to be president is NOT law. If the Supreme Court never acts, there is no way to prove the theory that his dual nationality bars him from being president. We can assume that the old definition of “natural born” applies.

    You perhaps may not, but most of us practical people will.

    Here is an interesting discussion of the subject. I am interested in your views.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2008/12/natural-born-citizen/

  32. smrstrauss says:

    Re: “Obama’s COLB is a forgery, but you can’t understand how the Hawaii officials would not broadcast that. ”

    First, only some unknown experts have claimed that it is a forgery. The officials in Hawaii said it looks like the document that they issue.

    Frankly, no, I would expect the officials in Hawai, if they suspected that the document was forged, would cry out “It is forged!”

    And, if they saw something in the file which indicated that he was not born in Hawaii, they would cry out “The COLB is false. He was not born in Hawaii.”

    But they did not do that. The document in the file must be a Hawaii birth certificate.

  33. Ryan,
    You make me laugh.

    Are you being serious about the “Haye I.B Ahphorgerie” document? Don’t you know that it was generated as a demonstration that forging such a document is possible? The last name is “Ahphorgerie” which sounds a lot like “A Forgery”. You totally missed that didn’t you?

    No, you moron, follow the links. It is obvious that “Hey! I Be A Forgery” (“Haye I.B Ahphorgerie”) is a forgery. Now, notice that the template to produce that forgery is the same exact template that was used to produce the Obama forgery. The thing you proudly hail as Obama’s COLB is a complete and utter forgery. A HOAX. And the officials in Hawaii ducked the issue by talking about the real, original Birth Certificate, and letting the press deceive people with statements like this:

    Reacting to Internet-fueled conspiracy theories that Obama’s birth certificate is a fake, Hawaiian officials have said they examined the document and have no doubt it is authentic.

    There are two different documents:

    1) The original birth certificate (OBC) that no one has seen except those two officials, and

    2) The forged CertificatION of Live Birth (forged COLB) that was first posted on Daily KOS.

    The Hawaiian officials have never verified a thing about the second, forged document.

    Do you really think that all the Republican officials in Hawaii that have the right to verify the Birth Certificate are liars, and are willing to risk jail time to defend the candidate of another party?

    They didn’t lie. They made sure that what they said was factually true, and then they let the media deceive people into thinking they had “verified” the forged COLB.

  34. Ryan says:

    So you admit that you believe the two Republican officials saw that his birth certificate (which Hawaii has on file) and that they are aware that is says he is born in Kenya, yet said nothing about the “forged” COLB issued by Obama.

    When you are a public elected official, knowingly and intentionally deceiving the public about anything is THE SAME AS LYING. There’s no difference in a court of law. None at all. If these officials are willing to risj lengthly jail time by committing these crimes, why would they not just go the whole way and say that he was born in Hawaii?

    What about the hundreds of people that work in the government offices of Hawaii who issue documents such as certificates of live birth. Any one of them could look up the record, find out if it is real, and if not, leak proof to the media. Whistleblower legislation would protect the person from prosecution, and the person would be hailed as a hero. Nobody has done that so far.

    Officials representing the state of Hawaii have said in interviews that the statement from Dr. Fukino can be interpreted as a verification that Obama was born in Hawaii.

    Will any amount of proof mean anything to you though? Even if they allowed you personal access to the vault in Hawaii you would say it was a forgery.

    Why is it that you will not believe this with the overwhelming evidence presented to you, but you believe beyond a shadow of a doubt in a supernatural being, for whom there is no evidence whatsoever?

  35. Pingback: Associated Press Distorts Again « I Took The Red Pill (and escaped the Matrix)

  36. smrstrauss says:

    Re: “They didn’t lie. They made sure that what they said was factually true, and then they let the media deceive people into thinking they had “verified” the forged COLB.”

    As I said before the statement of the two officials had nothing to do with whether the COLB that Obama posted was forged. The officials already told FactCheck.org and Polifact.com that they do not know for certain whether the posted document is forged or not because they cannot see the physical document. All that they can see is the scanned copy of the document.

    So what did they “verify’ in their announcement. Not the piece of paper that was scanned. They verified the FACTS on the piece of paper.

    And, when you come right down to it, the facts are all that matters.
    It is highly unlikely that the COLB that was posted was forged. The “experts” who WND quoted are unknown people who claim to be experts, and WND is hardly a fair and reliable organization.

    But even if the damn thing were forged, the only thing that would matter is that the document in the files says that Obama was born in Hawaii.

    This MUST be true because Hawaii is not allowed to lie in issuing the COLB. So if the officials saw Obama’s scanned COLB (and they did, because Polifact and FactCheck sent them copies by e-mail) and it says “born in Hawaii.” AND if the document in the file said that he was not born in Hawaii, then the COLB would be lying about his place of birth.

    And if that were true, and if they didn’t mention that fact when they “verified,” then they would be lying too, and subject to penalties for fraud, or at the least being fired — and why should they risk it?

    Ryan is quite right and insightful in noting that: “What about the hundreds of people that work in the government offices of Hawaii who issue documents such as certificates of live birth. Any one of them could look up the record, find out if it is real, and if not, leak proof to the media. Whistleblower legislation would protect the person from prosecution, and the person would be hailed as a hero. Nobody has done that so far.”

    To this I add that McCain hasn’t claimed that Obama was born in Kenya or lost his citizenship or isn’t a “natural born citizen” and neither has Bush, and Sarah Palin hasn’t said anything, nor has the Republican National Committee, nor any Republican (or Democrat) senator.

  37. They verified the FACTS on the piece of paper.

    No, they did not. Show me where they ever said that any of the fields in the COLB matched any of the fields in the original birth certificate. They never said that.

    How can you read this and come away thinking anything other than that the COLB is every bit a forgery as the COLB for “Haye I.B Ahphorgerie” (“Hey! I Be A Forgery!”)

    Hawaii NEVER ISSUED the COLB that Obama presents as his COLB.

    And potential whistleblowers can’t access the original vault birth certificate because it has been SEALED.

    I’m getting a bit tired of going back and forth with you two. This issue won’t be settled here, anyway. It will either be settled by the Legislative Branch when Congress has to certify the Electoral College vote, or it will be settled by the Judicial Branch if Congress does not honor their oath and the SCOTUS has to step in.

    McCain never raised the issue because:
    1) He has his own Natural Born Citizen issues
    2) He was a trojan horse candidate from the beginning, anyway.

    And the media has always been in Obama’s court.
    Associated Press Distorts Again

  38. Ryan says:

    Do you even read the things other people take the time to write? You like to have proof for everything – that is obvious. Well, where’s your proof that the document is SEALED? Who said it was sealed? It’s in a vault, but the record is in a database accessible to many people.

    Guess what – it doesn’t matter anyway. The fact that they actually have a document at all is all that matters. Hawaii does not issue or keep Birth Certificates for people born outside of the state – ever. I know you’re also worried about what some of the fields might say. That doesn’t matter either. Unless one of those fields indicates that he was born after 1974, and will not be 35 years of age in January – then he is FULLY qualified to be the president. It doesn’t matter where his parents were from. It doesn’t matter if he was immaculately conceived by a tow truck. If he first opened his eyes to see US soil – he’s qualified.

    You are arguing yourself into a very small corner. Your inability to budge on any issue at all when faced with very strong evidence shows that you are not actually interested in getting to the truth, but by bending it to meet your distorted reality.

  39. Ryan says:

    Look!! I found something else:

    A Hawaiian official signed an affidavit stating that the information on the COLB matched the vault copy of the BC exactly. That, I’m sure should put this issue to rest, at least in the minds of reasonable people.

    Here is a ruling of a Virginia Court:

    1. The Certification of Live Birth presented to the court is unquestionably authentic.
    The court noted that the certification had a raised seal from the state of Hawaii, had a stamp bearing the signature of the registrar of vital statistics. The court found “wholly unpersuasive” any of the internet claims that the birth certificate was altered in any way. Furthermore, the document itself was accompanied by an affidavit from the State Health Director (of Hawaii) verifying that the document is an authentic certification of live birth. The court held that there could be no doubt that the document was authentic unless one believed that the state of Hawaii’s health department were in on an elaborate and complex conspiracy – and that there is not a shred of evidence that this is the case.

    2. The Certification of Live Birth establishes that Mr. Obama is a natural born citizen. The affidavit of the State Health Director states that the information on the CLOB is identical to the information on the “vault” copy of the birth certificate, and that both documents establish that Mr. Obama was born in Honolulu. The Court noted that the CLOB is valid for all citizenship purposes. The court noted our argument that the COLB is not valid for determining citizenship, but referred us to Hawaiian law that states otherwise. “There is no difference between a certificate and a certification of live birth in the eyes of the state. For instance, either can be used to confirm U.S. citizenship to obtain a passport or state ID.” The court found that Hawaiian law makes the COLB valid for all purposes with the exception of determining native Hawaiian heritage for certain state and federal benefits. The court held that if Mr. Obama were born elsewhere and the birth registered in Hawaii, the “place of birth” line on the COLB would reflect that fact. The court stated that there could be no doubt that Mr. Obama was born in Hawaii and that any argument to the contrary was fanciful and relied on completely unsubstantiated internet rumors.

  40. The birth certificate is a secondary, but still important, issue. The primary issue is the accurate historical definition of “natural born citizen“. Obama does not meet that definition.

    He may (or may not) be a U.S. Citizen, but he is not a natural born U.S. Citizen.

    The original birth certificate was sealed when Obama was adopted by Lolo Soetoro and became Barry Soetoro.

    Hawaii does not issue or keep Birth Certificates for people born outside of the state – ever.

    Wrong.

    Compare the forged Obama COLB to an authentic CertificatE of Live Birth, and take special note of field 7c.

    “County and State or Foreign Country”

    There is some reason why Obama does not want the public to see his original birth certificate. Again, the BC issue is only secondary, with his admitted British citizenship being primary. Still, I’m interest in having you send a link to the

    affidavit from the State Health Director (of Hawaii) verifying that the document is an authentic certification of live birth.

  41. smrstrauss says:

    Re my ‘They verified the FACTS on the piece of paper.”

    And your “No, they did not. Show me where they ever said that any of the fields in the COLB matched any of the fields in the original birth certificate. They never said that.”

    I will repeat my point. The did not says: “Obama was born in Hawaii.” As I believe you posted yourself earlier, they cannot say such things under Hawaii law. They are forbidden to reveal personal details from the files.

    You might argue that even revealing that there was a birth certificate in the files was revealing personal details, because as Ryan so rightly points out, they do not keep Kenyan birth certificates in the files.

    But they haven’t been prosecuted for what they said, and in any case our discussion is not whether their action was illegal. It is whether what they said indicated that Obama was born in the USA.

    As Ryan has said the key, and simplest fact of the matter is that they do not keep Kenyan birth certificates in the files. I took a different tack arguing that IF there were a Kenyan (or Indonesian, or whatever) birth certificate in the files, morality and law would force them to shout out “the COLB is false!” And, as I said, by simply not saying that (if it were true), they would expose themselves to fraud charges and at the very least run the risk of losing their jobs.

    So they did not have to say: “The location is accurate.” All they had to say is that they saw the birth certificate. Moreover, the COLB itself is a legal document.

    If McCain had thought it was forged, he would have said so. Yes, he had his own birth problems, but the alleged forgery of a document is a lot worse than the questions about Panama. IF McCain and Bush even suspected that Obama had the COLB forged, they would be asking the Justice Department to investigate and would not be cordial to him now. And if anyone in the government of Hawaii (under a Republican governor) thought that Obama’s COLB was forged, they would be investigating too.

  42. smrstrauss says:

    Re: “There is some reason why Obama does not want the public to see his original birth certificate.”

    As I posted earlier, it doesn’t matter whether Obama wants or does not want people to see the original (and I think that he DOES want people to see the original). he cannot get the original or a copy of the original.

    The reason is that the Department of Health of the State of Hawaii does not release the original vault birth document any more. You will find some of them on the Web, but those were the originals that were issued to the parents of the people involved at the time of their birth.

    Hawaii does not issue these originals any more. Nor does it make copies of the originals. It issues ONLY the certification of live birth, which costs $10, and which Obama applied for, received and posted on line.

    How do I know that the Hawaii Department of Health issues only the certification of live birth? I asked them.

    Here is their reply to my e-mail:
    Quotes

    It is possible that we have records with more information but we issue only certified computer-generated certificates with certain necessary information to confirm a birth. We are the only agency that issues certified birth records for Hawaii
    Aloha,
    (Name removed)
    End Quote

    So all Obama can get (unless he has saved a copy of the original, and maybe he has but can’t find it), is the certification of live birth.

    (Even the DHHL, which has on its web site that it needs to have an original birth certificate, now says it will accept a certification of live birth. How do I know? I asked them.)

    Re:

    Still, I’m interest in having you send a link to the affidavit from the State Health Director (of Hawaii) verifying that the document is an authentic certification of live birth.

    There isn’t one. Why should there be? IF a court asks for an affidavit, that is the time to issue one. The same holds for showing the vault copy. IF a court issues a court order demanding to see the vault copy, that is a good time to show it. A court would have the facilities to authenticate the document, and as we know, it shows that Obama was born in Hawaii.

  43. smrstrauss,

    First, see what I said to Ryan:
    Compare the forged Obama COLB to an authentic CertificatE of Live Birth, and take special note of field 7c.

    “County and State or Foreign Country

    Mr. “Transparency” should have released his original birth certificate instead of hiring law firms. But his actions are those of a man who has something to hide.

    You said previously:

    But even if the damn thing were forged, the only thing that would matter is that the document in the files says that Obama was born in Hawaii.

    Kind of like Dan Rather and the forged Bush National Guard memos…

    “Fake, but accurate”?

    It matters that it is a forgery, and it matters that Obama is allowing fraud to be committed by others for his benefit.

    But even if Obama were born in the Lincoln bedroom of the White House, he still is ineligible to be POTUS and C-in-C because he was a British subject at birth. At BEST he was a dual citizen, and not a natural born citizen. His father was not a U.S. citizen, therefore he was not “born in the country, of parents who are citizens”.

    Unless something causes me to change my mind, I do not intend to spend any more of my time arguing with the two of you. It’s pointless. I’m not going to convince you, and you are not going to convince me.

    We shall all sit back and watch what the Legislative Branch (Congress) and the Judicial Branch (SCOTUS) do to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States”.

    Either way, there are going to be people who are very upset.

    Over and out.

  44. smrstrauss says:

    Do you honestly think that if there were any suspicion that the posted COLB were forged the Justice Department, the FBI and the officials in Hawaii wouldn’t have investigated long ago and announced their results even before the election?

    I mean forgery of a government document is a crime and forgery of a document affecting an election is a huge crime. And, IF there were a forgery, it would be relatively easy for the government experts to prove it.

    And even if the governments and agencies all decided not to investigate, if even one or two real experts in the FBI or Justice Department came forward to the press, it would be big news.

    So (1) the COLB is not forged; (2) the information on the COLB that Obama was born in Hawaii is accurate

  45. smrstrauss says:

    Re: “I do not intend to spend any more of my time arguing with the two of you. It’s pointless. I’m not going to convince you, and you are not going to convince me.”

    But perhaps there are some people reading this other than us three.

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